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Robert I  
#1 Posted : 09 July 2014 17:22:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Robert I

Hi, sorry if this topic has already been covered, I can't seem to find it.

I have a situation whereby we have hand washing facilities (in a food plant) that are fed from a POU water heater. The engineers are adamant that the water temperature must be above 50C and the technical people are upset that staff cannot wash their hands under the taps as the water is too hot, and this poses a food safety issue.

My take is that this is a low risk situation and the water temperature can be reduced to around 40 to 45C to allow hand washing to take place. Am I correct or am I missing a trick?

Thanks for your help

Robert I
jay  
#2 Posted : 09 July 2014 17:44:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Refer to Legionnaires' disease-Technical guidance-Part 2: The control of legionella bacteria in hot and cold water systems

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg274part2.pdf

2.69 Low storage volume heaters serving hot water outlets should be able to achieve a peak temperature of 50–60 °C and where the thermostat is set at these temperatures for this purpose, staff and other users should be informed not to adjust the heater. A unit which is not capable of achieving this, eg a preset thermostat, should only be used where there is a very high turnover or an alternative control measure is in place.

2.70 Low storage volume heaters, which includes electric showers, often have spray nozzle outlets and these should be inspected, cleaned and descaled as part of the showerhead and hose cleaning regime.

2.71 If these units are not regularly used or set to supply warm water, the risk from legionella is likely to increase dramatically and may increase further, where the units are supplied from a cold water storage tank. The risk assessment should take into account the usage of the units, the susceptibility of those using the units and include a suitable monitoring regime where the risk is considered significant.
jay  
#3 Posted : 09 July 2014 17:46:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

It appears that they key measure is the throughput and disinfection regime if you wnat to reduce the temperature! Is it not practicable to have a thermostatic mixing valve and a connection to the cold water system?
BJC  
#4 Posted : 09 July 2014 17:49:16(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Just fit a thermostatic valve so although it arrives at the sentinel at 50 c but discharges at 43 c.
tony.  
#5 Posted : 09 July 2014 17:57:28(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tony.

I would lower the temperature.
Its a regularly used outlet.
It doesn't store water.
I might be inclined tomtaake other measures.
We do our C&D in house on a 3 monthly basis and have staff to deal with this.I might look at taking the temps up on a regular basis and if it was a spray outlet increase any C&D regime.

Sticking a warning hot water sticker doesn't help


BJC  
#6 Posted : 09 July 2014 18:57:30(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

Apologies I see there is no cold water connection. Personally the chances of a Legionella outbreak from a well used sentinel are minute so crank it down to 45c and flush thoroughly through weekly. Alternatively write to your MP and ask why the Water board are not legally required to sterilise Legionella from their supply.
Evans38004  
#7 Posted : 10 July 2014 08:26:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Evans38004

BJC

Which UK water company does not chlorinated water to their customers?

The quality of water supply in UK is, normally, to an extremely high standard. However as with any chemical used to disinfect it will flush away and become more and more dilute as it "stands" in holding tanks / unused or rarely used pipes.

Where the customer has open holding tanks that can have dead / decaying insects / birds / animals then the water company has no control.

Contacting your MP and changing the law to increase the dosage of chlorine et-al will not eliminate the risk of legionella in all circumstances.
BJC  
#8 Posted : 10 July 2014 08:47:22(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest


Presently we are supplied with water that is contaminated by Legionella were that not to be the case I suspect the chance of an outbreak would be significantly reduced. Adding further toxic chemicals would be ridiculous however pointing out the failings of Water boards is not.








Evans38004 wrote:
BJC

Which UK water company does not chlorinated water to their customers?

The quality of water supply in UK is, normally, to an extremely high standard. However as with any chemical used to disinfect it will flush away and become more and more dilute as it "stands" in holding tanks / unused or rarely used pipes.

Where the customer has open holding tanks that can have dead / decaying insects / birds / animals then the water company has no control.

Contacting your MP and changing the law to increase the dosage of chlorine et-al will not eliminate the risk of legionella in all circumstances.

Robert I  
#9 Posted : 10 July 2014 09:33:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Robert I

Thank you all for your input.

I am minded to reduce the temperature to 45C and introduce monitoring at the outlets (four knee operated taps within 2 metres, no spray devices fitted).

As an aside, I read Part 2 and it would appear that TMVs can cause more issues than they resolve!

Robert I
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 10 July 2014 10:10:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Legionella is a common (almost universal) microorganism found in most water supplies. Usually is does not pose any risk unless:
1) It is allowed to multiple in warm, still water (approximately 20- 50C), eg in a holding tank or a terminating pipe. Here is grown as part of the biofilm- the natural scum that forms in pipes.
2) And it is made into an aerosol eg in wet cooling system, a shower head, even a fountain.
3) There are vulnerable adults, with weakened immune systems, being exposed to this aerosol.
The ways to control this are:
1. Control the temperature ie keep the water cold or hot
2. Use biocides to kill off some of the bacteria
3. Keep the water flowing.
So what we have here is small water heater with no storage of water and only a limited aerosol. Furthermore the people who might be exposed seem to be relatively healthy. Is there any evidence that there is high load of legionella in the pipework?
If not I’d lower the temperature as others have suggested.
Remember the water supply is provided for a good reason but it must be usable. Water coming out at 50C is not usable for hand washing.
BJC no water supplier in the world is able to deliver totally sterile water through the public supply; it’s just not practicable.
chris.packham  
#11 Posted : 10 July 2014 11:29:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Water for hand washing should not exceed 40 deg. C. Above this the effect is to disturb the lamellar layer (special fats in the skin) and significantly reduce the barrier properties of the skin. It can take the skin some time to recover (in one study up to one hour). Thus having washed their hands at a high temperature that person will be vulnerable were they then to have skin contact with a harmful chemical until the skin has restored its normal barrier properties.

If, as I think is the case, this is one of those wall mounted instant water heaters, will the passage of water for a few seconds at 50 deg C really have any significant effect on any legionella present? Perhaps an analysis of the water from the heater at different temperatures might help you to arrive as a sensible solution.

Chris
Xavier123  
#12 Posted : 11 July 2014 10:05:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

Yup Chris. 50 degrees is not a kill temperature, it's a storage temperature - the time required to hold at that temp in order to kill decreases as you approach and then exceed 60 degrees - but 50 for a few seconds will give legionella little more than a temporary headache.

There is a difference between an instantaneous heater and one with a small storage tank though but regardless, assuming high turnover from very regular use (I'd confirm that evidentially if I were you) then you've likely got it covered. Of course if you can hit 50 degrees then you should, but in this case there is a reasonably practicable argument for not doing so.


As for sterilising the water coming out of your tap........

Robert I  
#13 Posted : 11 July 2014 10:20:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Robert I

Xavier123 wrote:

There is a difference between an instantaneous heater and one with a small storage tank though but regardless, assuming high turnover from very regular use (I'd confirm that evidentially if I were you) then you've likely got it covered. Of course if you can hit 50 degrees then you should, but in this case there is a reasonably practicable argument for not doing so.


It has a small (15 litre) storage tank, the sink is used by 40 people at least four times during a standard shift. The operation works two shifts.

We are hitting 50C, as is the current case, but the staff cannot wash their hands effectively as the water is too hot. I will be able to prove the throughput, and will be able to introduce micro testing periodically to show any loading in the system

Thanks everyone, again, for their points of view.

Robert I
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