Rank: New forum user
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There might seem to be an obvious answer as we could just read the regulations but.. We have recently had a staff member who was playing golf with customers, he slipped and broke his leg and will now be off work for over 6 weeks. So as he was at work when the accident happened I immediately thought RIDDOR but then after thinking about it I wasn't so sure, several other situations then came to mind...what about going for a drink with customers in the evening or attending a team building exercise in the forest? If an accident happens are these reportable as RIDDOR? I then called the HSE and after being put on hold for what seemed like an eternity was told that our staff member who was playing golf was doing this sociably and so RIDDOR does not apply.
Does anyone have a definitive answer to the above points?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Good luck getting a definitive answer on RIDDOR these days! In a desperate attempt to reduce the number of accidents reported the definition of “at work” has been tinkered with over the years. In the case you mention I take it the IP was your employee was being paid to play golf to entertain your clients. 25 years ago when I started in H&S this would have clearly been a work activity and would be reportable, as at work and a major injury. Today it would appear we have to ask ourselves a few other questions. Why did he slip? Was there a fault with the equipment supplied (poor spikes?) is there an issue with the course design – some great pothole on the fairway, trailing hosepipe he tripped over. If there is any such additional factor then I would say RIDDOR. If he was just walking down the fairway or even in the rough and just slipped (easily done broke my ankle that way a couple of years ago on a walk where there was a bit of mud I did not see) then I would say not reportable. There has always been an exemption in RIDDOR for “normal sports injuries” such as sustained in a bad tackle at football etc., but I don’t think a broken leg playing golf falls into that category. So as I said to begin with not definitive and no doubt others will have a view on this but hope what I have said helps.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The HSE are the enforcing agency and theirs is the definitive answer.
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Rank: New forum user
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Thanks for the answers, although I totally agree that the HSE as the enforcing body will be giving the correct answer, my concern is that this information was gained from a telephone conversation, what I would like is something in writing which clairifies this point
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Rank: Forum user
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Whilst HSE have the final answer here I agree with the concern that this is over a telephone conversation; I too have sought to clarify issues and would feel more comfortable if you received an email for audit process from HSE.
Would it not be wise to report; if the employee was tasked with doing this - irrespective of the activity the injury has resulted from a request from an employer.
Better to over report than under!
Paul
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Rank: Super forum user
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Is the HSE the enforcing agency or is it the LA? Check the enforcing authority Regs. And Eagle says how much info was taken during the phone and was he speaking to the HSE or some agency worker looking at a script! How many people used to complain about the HSE help line?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Assuming refreshments would have been purchased for your customers during the event. Would your employee have claimed these back as a business expense or payed for them on a company credit card?
If so, he was at work. (or fiddling the expenses)
Need to establish iif this was a social event or coorperate hospitality. if it's the latter and part of his job role then I would say it's reportable.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Hang on.
Member of the public. Major injury.
Should the golf course report under RIDDOR?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Safetyamature - see my comments above - the accident had to occur due to the "work activity" so had to be some fault that caused the injury - gone are the days when just having an accident in someone elses workplace make it reportable!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Although you don’t provide much detail of the circumstances that led to the fall, if this was ‘simply’ falling over while on the golf course, then my gut feeling is that RIDDOR doesn’t apply to this case.
The issue here for me is whether the cause of the accident was or should have been under the control of the employer (or other person upon who may have a duty to report). Other than the fact that the IP was playing golf as part of his/her employment, it would seem that in reality it has little to do with ‘work’.
While you might like the ‘comfort’ of having something in writing, I think it highly unlikely that this is going to come back and bite you because you haven’t reported.
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Rank: Super forum user
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To be clear as to which way to go I follow the tax man (as does the HSE in many ways/instances) and with what has been said its most likely that the person was at work as I bet that the act of golfing was paid for by the employer and claimed for as a taxable business expense. If this was not an expenses kick but just a social event where the person paid out of his own pocket then that's a different story and if drinks are claimed as expensis when drinking in the evening then a person is at work whilst they are drinking
That said it all depends upon why the person fell and so on so its gets very complicated and the HSE are being more grey now than ever and as for a written answer from the HSE please do not hold your breath
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Rank: Super forum user
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Why is there all this discussion on this? The answer was in the OP. The HSE were asked, they gave an answer. Simple.
Why would it matter if it was a telephone conversation, and why would anyone think that the HSE helpline is staffed by agency workers?
As ususal a simple question is needlessly over-complicated by all sorts of spurious arguments.
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Rank: Forum user
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Come on guys, PL53 & the HSE are 100% right, this is never reportable in a million years...
Not in connection with a work activity, and nowhere near reportable by the golf club as athletics and sports are exempt.
(although I do love a good riddor debate:)
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Rank: Super forum user
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No it is not a Riddor, it a real life event. Simples
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Rank: Super forum user
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if in real doubt err to caution as we should do and report - then let the HSE make the decision
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Rank: Super forum user
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I don't think I would report this, it is just plain bad luck.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The problem with the HSE call center is they can only go from what you say and there is always a possibility they did not understand the scenario.
For instance when you say "playing golf with customers" you could mean teaching them to play golf. Then the person is definitely working.
The term "slipped" could be on the flat or down a bank or hole where some construction work is taking place. This could bring into consideration the workplace.
They could just be walking from the club house on a perfectly good path and just tripped over fresh air.
Can't help but feel there is more to this as you don't normally break a leg just falling over, possible I agree, but not the most likely outcome (IMHO)
The devil is always in the detail.
You may want to look up this apparent sports / athletics being exempt noted above and see if what happened fits the guidance.
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Rank: Forum user
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There have been several succesful court cases following harassment etc at xmas parties over the years. On the same lines those involved were classed as "at work", surely a precedent has been set in law?
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Rank: Super forum user
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If at work then an assessment of risks would be necessary:
...manual handling (swinging , twisting, carrying the golf bag etc), working adjacent to water, UV light, slips and trips, falling objects...... and so it goes on.
Never in a million years is one of these gonna be in place for corporate entertainment!
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Rank: Super forum user
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If in doubt always ask yourself the question why RIDDOR & previously NADOR were introduced in the first place?
What exactly were the HSE/LA hoping to achieve by this legislation & would it apply to the scenario given?
In my opinion this is not reportable....
Zyggy
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Rank: Super forum user
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I agree the HSE might have not got the full picture. Was he being paid for playing golf with customers? Is he a golf instructor? Did the place he was playing golf at fill out an accident form? Do they even know about it? Were they under the influence? Do you have an Alcohol and Substance Policy? Mnay questions- not just black and white, I think there's a bit more investigating to do before you can decide if this isa RIDDOR or not.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Injuries that arise out of sporting activities are not reportable unless they are caused by a fault with the equipment being used or the safety management of the event.
General sporting injuries do not need to be reported as partaking in most sports contains an element of risk that A) cannot be removed or controlled and B) has been considered to have been knowingly accepted by the participant
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Rank: Forum user
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Mmmmmm....Loving the differing opinions and rationale given to support these opinions.
I know I shouldn't but here goes.........I was always of the understanding that RIDDOR was there to help and assist with the management of work place incidents and was the main receptor for collating all this data to help the HSE provide guidance and supporting evidence to the workplace of what the main sources of incidents/injuries are so that we can put suitable control measures in place to prevent such incidents occurring in the future.
We seem to be getting caught up stuff that really detracts from what we should be focusing on. If some on this post had their way we would be putting a total ban on any extra-curricular activities such as drinking beer and playing golf.
I will wait with bated breath for the next HSE report on work place incidents to see how many broken limbs have occurred on treacherous golf courses where pot holes, sand traps, buggies being driven by non approved drivers while under the influence, low flying sticks and small round projectiles/missiles are all in abundance.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Local authority is the enforcing authority unless the golf club is owned by the LA. Not enough detail to determine whether reportable.
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