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meady  
#1 Posted : 08 August 2014 09:39:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
meady

Morning all

I feel there is a real problem at my work regarding building access and specifically knowing who is on site at any one time.

Nobody here has to swipe in or out, the reception diary is not 100% accurate and people often come and go throughout the day visiting different customers etc. We also have various visitors to site.

There are various ways to enter the building!!!

Can anybody tell me what tactics or methods I can adopt to ensure that we know exactly who is and is not on site?

Currently there is a 'oh, she is on lunch' and 'he's at a customer' culture, which is obviously a problem during fire drills etc.

I feel that the swiping system would be unsuitable as people 'pop' to the shop at lunch and break times and there is a laid-back attitude by management which allows people to go to doctors and other appointments as and when.

Any tips or input would help.

Thanks

Dave
teh_boy  
#2 Posted : 08 August 2014 09:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

Sweeps by trained fire marshals are often the best way to ensure buildings are clear.
I've even seen very hi-tech systems 'fall over' in live plays on large COMAH sites,

In the past on complex old buildings, I had marshals put signs on final doors saying do not enter - this was as the alarm wasn't immediately audible.

In reality - drill and see what happens, then sit and discuss, try something else and drill again - repeat until YOUR system works.

Graham  
#3 Posted : 08 August 2014 10:08:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

My view is that a roll call will never be 100% reliable, and as such is probably worse than useless.
If someone is missing from the roll call do you send a fire fighter in on the off chance, I don’t think so.
Sweeping is much more reliable (although of course not 100%). The fire brigade want to know if the building is empty, not that everyone is accounted for.
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 08 August 2014 10:20:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We have large site with about 700 people on it. Anybody entering the site either has to sweep in (including vehicles) or be registered as a visitor assigned to a host.
There is only one way into the site and it is manned 24/7.
If there is a fire alarm only the block where the fire is detected is evacuated. There are two assembly areas on opposite sides of the site.
As there are no restriction on coming and going from the site and on moving about the site between the blocks there is no point having any sort of register.
Instead we use a sweep system (which is not too difficult as usually they would only do one block)
There have been attempts to “standardise” our system to match the one they use in Whitehall but we have to explain to them that our site is completely different form the ones down there.
Lawlee45239  
#5 Posted : 08 August 2014 10:38:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

meady wrote:
Morning all

I feel there is a real problem at my work regarding building access and specifically knowing who is on site at any one time.

Nobody here has to swipe in or out, the reception diary is not 100% accurate and people often come and go throughout the day visiting different customers etc. We also have various visitors to site.

There are various ways to enter the building!!!

Can anybody tell me what tactics or methods I can adopt to ensure that we know exactly who is and is not on site?

Currently there is a 'oh, she is on lunch' and 'he's at a customer' culture, which is obviously a problem during fire drills etc.

I feel that the swiping system would be unsuitable as people 'pop' to the shop at lunch and break times and there is a laid-back attitude by management which allows people to go to doctors and other appointments as and when.

Any tips or input would help.

Thanks

Dave


We have a laid back approach here too, but reception do keep tabs on who is in/out (as everyone walks past them, and they have the holiday chart).......on one of the sites I am on, they have a peg board with name badges on, if you are on site you take your name badge and if you are off site it remains, so the security man can visually see who is present at all times, which I think is good. (they have the hand scanner right beside it too though!)
jwk  
#6 Posted : 08 August 2014 10:39:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

At our main office (about 700 people) we use chipped ID badges. These are linked to the entry points from reception, anybody with a chip can walk in (and is logged), everybody without a chip has to sign in and be manually cleared to get through the doors. The system also logs people as they leave,

John
Jake  
#7 Posted : 08 August 2014 10:45:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Graham wrote:
My view is that a roll call will never be 100% reliable, and as such is probably worse than useless.
If someone is missing from the roll call do you send a fire fighter in on the off chance, I don’t think so.
Sweeping is much more reliable (although of course not 100%). The fire brigade want to know if the building is empty, not that everyone is accounted for.


Agreed 100%.

OP, I really would not be concerned if you can't track comings and goings - this is largely irrelevant in the event of a fire (or fire drill).

The key is to ensure no-one is in the building - if 20 people are out at lunch, 3 at a clients and 1 at the doctors who gives a hoot?!

Implement a building sweep by trained fire wardens, split down by building section / floor etc. if appropriate.

Roll calls are a waste of time, in my opinion and experience and attempting to track either electronically or manually leaves a huge risk of assuming the count is accurate. Do both a count and a sweep is also unnecessary duplication.
HSSnail  
#8 Posted : 08 August 2014 11:39:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Interested in some of the auto logging devises that some of you use. How long does it take to get a list of people off the system and if there was a real fire would you be happy with someone staying in the building to get that list rather than evacuating at the earliest opportunity? I appreciate that sweepers are the last to leave so there is a lag in evacuation time there, but thinking about our IT system I just think this would be a nightmare interested to know how others cope.

Brian
Psycho  
#9 Posted : 08 August 2014 11:47:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

you think you have it bad
there will be somewere between 2000 - 3000 in one of my buildings of which i have numerous
i cant tell you the amound of staff or the visitor numbers it changes continuously
we dont even have assembly points for persons to muster in the event of an incident

Training is good
we train staff to carry out a sweep when they evacuate
we also tell them to take the patients with them when carrying out the evacuation
they horizontally evacuate from one part of the hospital to the other

the main thing is to ensure the area is clear, do not depend on swipe cards and log books it only takes someone not to sign in or out and your system has failed at the first hurdle
Carol B  
#10 Posted : 08 August 2014 13:26:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Carol B

Our roll call system is linked to the fire alarm, when the fire alarm sounds the roll call is automatically printed out in our reception area and also at our Security hut at the entrance to site. This works well for us as our large, one area, production line with lots of blind spots would be impossible to sweep quickly
fiesta  
#11 Posted : 08 August 2014 13:26:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fiesta

Graham wrote:
My view is that a roll call will never be 100% reliable, and as such is probably worse than useless.
If someone is missing from the roll call do you send a fire fighter in on the off chance, I don’t think so.
Sweeping is much more reliable (although of course not 100%). The fire brigade want to know if the building is empty, not that everyone is accounted for.


Totally agree.
We had a visit from the Fire and Rescue service a couple of years ago and they tried to insist that our system ensured we knew who was in and out. Our site sounds very like the OP. Lots of people coming and going and multiple entrances. Very difficult to keep any sort of accurate track.
In the end I wrote to the F&R service and told them I wasn't going to do what they asked as we knew our site and we knew our risks. As long as we knew, in the event of a fire, that the building was empty that was all that mattered.
They backed down.
teh_boy  
#12 Posted : 08 August 2014 14:19:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

I'm going to say again - whatever your system - ensure you drill and drill again!
Try planting someone in the building and see if the sweepers find them.
Try presenting a 'casualty' and see what happens.
Ask the fire brigade if they'd like to come and play (unless you're COMAH etc and get billed for it :) )

This is the only way to ensure a system works.

Then on that day we hope never comes, you can say with confidence to the fire chief, you need to commit a crew (who might not come out), or the buildings clear (no crew committed, so lets hope we were right)

This was the most stressful moment I had when running silver command (in an exercise) on a COMAH site - the fire officer pointed out the above and asked "are you sure - if not and people die its on you" it was then I realised, despite a hi-tech system I wasn't sure!!!

Our confusion came as the ambulance service reported that they 'with a casualty' and the fire brigade said they were 'extracting a body' - we counted two people - there was only 1!
Mass confusion - doubt over system... As everyone has said above - no system is perfect, not even sweeps!
But practice goes along way!
meady  
#13 Posted : 08 August 2014 14:28:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
meady

Thanks guys!

Plenty of ideas and tips for me to get stuck into.

Have a glorious weekend!!


ocwilliams1  
#14 Posted : 08 August 2014 15:31:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ocwilliams1

Can only echo what has already been said, training warden to sweep dedicated section of the building, and report to a Lead Warden that there section is clear.

Train enough to cover comings and goings/ holidays and sickness, Get them some shinny hi-vis vest,

Communicate fire procedure to all staff, training the warden then have your drill and review from there. Better to find the shortcoming now than alter.

Good luck,

Oli
mssy  
#15 Posted : 08 August 2014 18:16:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

We have around 3,500 staff in one city centre site. Our approach relies on a strict system of avoiding false fire alarms, including a long staff search time delay and a well policed hot work permit system.

During any evacuation, there is insufficient time to print of an access control list for that mount of people, and even if we did, there's nowhere to site an assembly point (or even a series of assembly points) for a roll call.

The surrounding streets are narrow and in order not to block approach roads for emergency crews, we have a system where staff simply walk away and go shopping or go for a coffee until they are called back via a mass text system.

It works really well and staff actually look forward to our drills. No windy or wet car park for them, its Marks and Spencers or Costa for 30 minutes!!!
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