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jarsmith83  
#1 Posted : 22 August 2014 13:19:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Hi Ladies and Gents I have had an incident on a site we are working on where the client has just closed off an area (a plant room) where they have found asbestos residues on cable tray, floors and other parts of the room. I understand that it is the responsibility of the duty holder to manage and it is not mandatory for a survey to be carried out, but good practice. In the situation where a survey has not been carried out it should be presumed that materials contain asbestos (unless totally discounted). My question(s): (1) In this particular case where asbestos residue has been identified - does this mean that there has been a failure to manage on the part of the client? (2) Would forum users, if were in this situation, now request that all plant rooms are checked for asbestos residue as precaution? (3) If we put our workforce to work in all of the other plant rooms the client owns with the knowledge of this current situation, would we be held liable if we did not ensure the other rooms were checked for residue?
peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 22 August 2014 13:35:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

JAR I think the answer to all three questions is yes.
Lawlee45239  
#3 Posted : 22 August 2014 13:35:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

If it were me, I would refuse to carry out any further works until the relevent survey is carried out. In answer to your questions; 1. I feel that yes they have, if a survey was carried out prior to works then this would have been removed off site in a controlled manner, 2. Yes I would, 3. I would think that yes your company would be held semi liable if further asbestos was found owing to the fact that it has been found in this one plant room. Asbestos is found in pretty much everything and anything in buildings prior to 2000, for peace of mind for your employees I wouldnt continue until you have proof that there isnt a risk of exposure.
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 22 August 2014 13:41:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Isn't it mandatory to have an asbestos management plan (AMP)? It would be impossible to manage something that you don't know where it is or if you even know you have any at all all?
jarsmith83  
#5 Posted : 22 August 2014 13:55:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Hi All Thank you so much for the quick response. With over 600 plant rooms, it would be a massive decision to pull out. This is why I am hesitating giving a penultimate decision. Fire Safety 101 - Good point! I think my initial request will be for this document in order to scrutinize their plan. I am of the mind to limit the non attendance of all plant rooms of similar characteristics i.e. contained in similar buildings and act form their, what do you guys think?
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:10:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

The year 2000 was when asbestos was effectively banned for use therefore if you seek to know the year of construction, any plant rooms built post 2000 should be OK. Any prior to 2000 you may look at restricting your employees access. I think if HSE know you know what you know, they may consider you're putting your employees at risk if you do not ask the questions from now? Do your people have asbestos awareness training and know how to recognise ACMs ?
Lawlee45239  
#7 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

jarsmith83 wrote:
Hi All Thank you so much for the quick response. With over 600 plant rooms, it would be a massive decision to pull out. This is why I am hesitating giving a penultimate decision. Fire Safety 101 - Good point! I think my initial request will be for this document in order to scrutinize their plan. I am of the mind to limit the non attendance of all plant rooms of similar characteristics i.e. contained in similar buildings and act form their, what do you guys think?
600, wow thats a lot. Do they have a AMP and a register? What have they said upon finding the asbestos in that one plant room? What course of action are they taking to remove the asbesots from there? What is the building/ and works (refurb?). There will be contracts in place, so you dont have to pull out totally of the job, but the Client/ PC should be managing this, you need to protect your workers.
jarsmith83  
#8 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:15:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Hi Fire Safety I think Asbestos training, for this particular instance, is irrelevant as its debris lying on the floor and cable trays that I would have difficulty identifying (they have had training though). All plant rooms are pre 2000, all rooms and buildings are of similar characteristics, so this makes it very difficult to differentiate. I am losing hair as we speak :-)
jarsmith83  
#9 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:20:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

600, wow thats a lot. Do they have a AMP and a register? What have they said upon finding the asbestos in that one plant room? What course of action are they taking to remove the asbesots from there? What is the building/ and works (refurb?). There will be contracts in place, so you dont have to pull out totally of the job, but the Client/ PC should be managing this, you need to protect your workers.
It is a maintenance contract - They are removing the asbestos from this location, so know problem, but we have been working in there for a number of years. There was another plant room of similar ilk so confidence is at a low for all other plant rooms now.
Lawlee45239  
#10 Posted : 22 August 2014 14:34:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

jarsmith83 wrote:
600, wow thats a lot. Do they have a AMP and a register? What have they said upon finding the asbestos in that one plant room? What course of action are they taking to remove the asbesots from there? What is the building/ and works (refurb?). There will be contracts in place, so you dont have to pull out totally of the job, but the Client/ PC should be managing this, you need to protect your workers.
It is a maintenance contract - They are removing the asbestos from this location, so know problem, but we have been working in there for a number of years. There was another plant room of similar ilk so confidence is at a low for all other plant rooms now.
Oh lord, not a good situation at all for you. Again if it were me, I would stop all works, in order to reduce any further 'possible' exposure. I would demand a survey be carried out owing to the fact it has just been found and you have been on site a number of years, and if a survey has been carried out, I would demand a copy, when you get a copy READ it, just because its done doesnt mean there isnt any asbesots. The majority of surveys will say 'could not gain access to this plant room or boiler room' or 'presumed that asbestos is present further testing required'.......... Its a difficult situation, and perhaps the hesitation is over nothing at all, but your workers are the main issue here. The HSE website has really good info on abestos, we recently attended an awareness course (not with the HSE!), and I still couldnt pick out asbestos only because its in so many products, and you cannot actually tell if it is unless it is tested.
andrewcl  
#11 Posted : 22 August 2014 16:15:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
andrewcl

Only one other thing to add to the excellent replies already posted and that is in regard to the statement on training. I believe it's regulation 10 of the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 says something along the lines of "folks need asbestos awareness training if there's a chance they may be exposed to asbestos." Also says the sort of thing you need to be told on the course such as properties, health effects, ACMs(Asbestos Containing Materials) and Emergency Procedures Also Blue (Crocidolite) and Brown (Amosite/Grunerite) banned in 1985, White (Chrysotile) banned in 1999.
RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 25 August 2014 11:23:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Despite there being 600 plant rooms there still remains a duty to ensure they are free from hazards ie ACMs. Don't know the date these plant rooms were built, but I would argue that plant rooms have a high potential for ACMs. Hence I would need some assurance that where maintenance work is taking place: a) they are free from ACMs; b) maintenance work will not disturb any ACMs. Was an asbestos register ever requested or provided? Providing Asbestos Awareness Training is a legal duty for the employer pursuant to Reg 10 of CAR 2012. However, this will not be sufficient to absolve any duty or to protect those working in premises where ACMs are present and may be disturbed.
Ron Hunter  
#13 Posted : 25 August 2014 13:26:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Perhaps another "legacy" issue from some of the poor stripping practices prevalent in the 1980s. Decon and clearance was often poor, and significant asbestos insulation left at flanges, valves and part-way down difficult to access ducting. Your people should be made aware of these 'histrical' risk issues via appropriate awareness training. The inexpert client/employer can be given a false sense of security by referring to a decades-old "insulation removed" record - best to get up-to-date confirmation!!!
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