Rank: Super forum user
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I don't know what I ate last night but today I have been particularly awkward and asking some pointed questions to several people, including on (but not limited to) another thread here.
As a profession (I refuse to call us an industry) we stand accused of "gold plating" legislation originating from the EU and always wanting to go that little bit further in improving what we already have. No doubt encouraged by the continuous improvement mantra invented by the quality brigade and now enshrined in Plan Do Check Act.
We blithely talk about "best practice" as if this is the goal we all must attain, when actually compliance is usually adequate and "good practice" is a laudable achievement and much of our workplaces are sub-compliance levels.
As NEBOSH are fond of saying: Discuss.
PS I am not Victor reborn!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Yeah David, I did say 'best practice' on the FLT thread :o)
I don't always insist on implementing every best practice idea, nor every best practice suggestion that we see in ACoPs, but I always keep in mind what it says in the preface to an ACoP. "Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice"
and there's that bit about "... if it is proved that you did not follow the relevant provisions of the Code, you will need to show that you have complied with the law in some other way or a Court will find you at fault".
Is that the gold plating that others in the EU don't have?
If little effort is required to follow ACoP guidance, or suggestions for best practice, then I do encourage them. With FLTs I certainly do as my main customer was prosecuted following an FLT accident and they then brought me in as their advisor; so I'm certainly keen to avoid any issues with FLTs!
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Rank: Super forum user
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JohnW wrote:Is that the gold plating that others in the EU don't have? Not in my experience. I can only speak about Germany but alot of the regulations issued by the statutory accident insurance bodies have a very similar caveat at the beginning, especially those which include guidance.
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Rank: Super forum user
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David
Interesting question. Do we 'gold plate' EU directives? I'm not really sure, but I do know that HSE ACoPs and other guidance goes into such detail that there is little room for additional 'best practice' initiatives. And I agree that a desire for better performance is driven by PDCA, as well as auditors wanting to evidence of best practice, etc.
However, in reality compliance with the law satisfies most companies in my experience. That in itself is an achievement must do not fully attain.
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Rank: Super forum user
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But why would we not want the best possible, sfarp etc, H&S standards for our employees???? Surely the fact that others are worse than us is no argument to work to the lowest common standard?
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Why is it that gold plating is OK elsewhere but not in H&S??? I agree with Bob L
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Rank: Super forum user
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I can’t speak for H&S gold plating but when the Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) directive first came into existence, I represented a UK manufacturers trade body on its implementation into UK law. The directive itself, was (ignoring the “template stuff”) about 2 sides of A4. Most member countries just translated that into their own language. Us Brits turned it into a 96 page document.
The Medical research equipment company I worked for moved its factories to Germany & Spain a few years later, only a warehouse remained in the UK.
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Rank: Super forum user
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boblewis wrote:But why would we not want the best possible, sfarp etc, H&S standards for our employees???? Surely the fact that others are worse than us is no argument to work to the lowest common standard?
You're advancing a straw man argument. Stating that you don't seek to meet best practice is not at all the same thing as saying you'll accept the lowest common standard. You might want the best possible anything. You probably can't provide the best. I'd like all the employees of my company to be receiving the best wages in the country, with the best package of perks, the best working environment while enjoying the best job security. I don't imagine for a moment that the company can provide that. Personally, I never use 'best practice' - it's a meaningless term. There's no way you can establish that what you are doing is controlling even one particular risk better than absolutely everyone else is, so you can never justify a claim to be working to best practice. I'll push for good practice, but I don't think anyone can actually claim to provide best practice. Anyone that claims to be providing the best possible (in any field of human endeavour) is lying, in my opinion. It can't be quantified, let alone measured, let alone guaranteed.
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Rank: Forum user
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Dear All
The following text is directly quoted from the Framework Directive 89/391/EEC:
Preamble: ‘minimum requirements for encouraging improvement’
Article 1(2) ‘the elimination of risk and accident factors’
Article 6 (1) ‘Within the context of his responsibilities, the employer shall take the measures necessary for the safety and health protection of workers, including prevention of occupational risks and provision of information and training, as well as provision of the necessary organization and means.
The employer shall be alert to the need to adjust these measures to take account of changing circumstances and aim to improve existing situations.’
The ‘gold plating’ of EU H&S Directives has already been dismissed by several authorities and reports. However it is recognised that in some instances – self-employed for example – our laws will include coverage that may not exist in the original specific directives. [Maybe our economy will go into superdrive when self-employed people who present no risk to themselves and others are exempted from the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and that so called ‘burden’ is removed from them.]
If one considers the general principles of prevention specified in Schedule 1 of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, it starts with a requirement to avoid the risk ie this is the first step after a risk assessment has identified that a risk exists. Personal Protective Equipment is the second last step of eight and is viewed by the Health and Safety Executive as a ‘last resort’ while more effective preventative measures are being developed.
Of course many employers don’t see PPE as a last resort but as the first. Following a risk assessment many employers do not look at eliminating, sorry, avoiding the risk as a starting point: they assume it is impossible because .. well, because … well it’s bound to be.
On the other hand all sorts of technical developments are going on virtually all the time. Many of these ‘best practice’ solutions are not known to many employers because masses of other information may crowd out useful information. [Camera drones being used to photograph areas thus eliminating the need for people to go into dangerous or difficult to access places: who needs ladder training when you can use a drone to inspect?]
For example many years ago I took a mental note of a Japanese company who were developing an exoskeleton framework which an individual could wear and – with it operating – could lift up to 10 times their weight: I recently read this was now a commercial reality.
‘Best practice’ is a term I’ve always used loosely. I’ve never considered myself as being a liar because in my specialism – worker involvement – it’s more ‘hearts and minds’ than the elaboration of technical standards that gets people’s pulses racing. Good practice seems good enough where – for example – around 50% of construction sites in an ‘intensive inspection’ were found to be in breach of the law. With that kind of statistic, compliance with the law appears to be a minimum standard too high for too many employers.
While I accept achrn’s point that ‘best practice’ is nigh on impossible to measure, the promotion of good practice should assist in support of ‘continuous improvement’: a concept promoted heavily in management standards but often sadly lacking in application to health and safety standards.
If we do not strive for improving existing standards, we can miss out on developing more efficient, safer and healthier ways of working. Whether the term is ‘best practice’, ‘good practice’ or ‘simply the best’ - whatever that means – the minimum legal starting point is avoiding the risk altogether. [This is not so much ‘gold plating’, as ‘tin plating’.] In the pursuit of this objective I’ll take whatever ‘practice’ will get us there!!
Cheers.
Nigel
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Rank: Super forum user
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Got to agree with achrn here. How can you look for best practice and sfarp at the same time. The two are contradictory. Best practice is a superlative term. It is an absolute. Better than any body else. Something that you are never going to be able to achieve.
SFARP is a subjective term. It depends on a whole host of variables, such as cost, time, effort available resource etc.
There's nothing wrong with striving to continuously improve but let's at least try to stay in the real world.
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Rank: Super forum user
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achrn wrote:boblewis wrote:But why would we not want the best possible, sfarp etc, H&S standards for our employees???? Surely the fact that others are worse than us is no argument to work to the lowest common standard?
You're advancing a straw man argument. Stating that you don't seek to meet best practice is not at all the same thing as saying you'll accept the lowest common standard. You might want the best possible anything. You probably can't provide the best. I'd like all the employees of my company to be receiving the best wages in the country, with the best package of perks, the best working environment while enjoying the best job security. I don't imagine for a moment that the company can provide that. Personally, I never use 'best practice' - it's a meaningless term. There's no way you can establish that what you are doing is controlling even one particular risk better than absolutely everyone else is, so you can never justify a claim to be working to best practice. I'll push for good practice, but I don't think anyone can actually claim to provide best practice. Anyone that claims to be providing the best possible (in any field of human endeavour) is lying, in my opinion. It can't be quantified, let alone measured, let alone guaranteed.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Sorry too quick on the button. Doing the best possible is what I stated with some codicils. Each organisation has to seek its own best standards. It is not a straw man argument because to accept less than the best you can do IS to say I will accept that some will be injured or even killed as a consequence of the standard I put in place. No one is asking for comparators simply an honest professional approach that seeks to place the emphasis primarily on employee H&S recognising however the impact of other business priorities.
Best Practice is indeed sometimes difficult to identify, and the data is not necessarily available, but perhaps that is also why the HSE feel the need to be so detailed, without the information many organisations will no doubt rapidly slide down the snakes rather than climb the ladders. Having said that there are many Industry and Manufacturer codes and standards that provide excellent information.
We should also perhaps that other European legal systems operate differently to those of the UK. This means that care has to be taken to ensure that loopholes are not created.
When we lose the vision to strive for the best we can only drift to a lower standard.
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Rank: Super forum user
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boblewis wrote:It is not a straw man argument because to accept less than the best you can do IS to say I will accept that some will be injured or even killed as a consequence of the standard I put in place.[/quotye] Yes it is. You contrasted "best possible" with "work to the lowest common standard". Failing to work to the "best possible" standard is not the same as working to "the lowest common standard", and implying that it is is absolutely a straw man argument. No-one is advocating working to the lowest common standard, they are arguing that 'best possible' is not a realistic standard. boblewis wrote: When we lose the vision to strive for the best we can only drift to a lower standard.
This is also untrue, in my opinion. I strive to ensure firstly that everyone gets home safe every day, and secondly that their health is not detrimentally impacted in any way by work. Neither of those standards is the best possible. This in no way means I advocate a drift to lower standards, and it is (at best) a straw man to say that it does, in my opinion.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Oh for an edit function! I'll try the formatting again: boblewis wrote: It is not a straw man argument because to accept less than the best you can do IS to say I will accept that some will be injured or even killed as a consequence of the standard I put in place.
Yes it is. You contrasted "best possible" with "work to the lowest common standard". Failing to work to the "best possible" standard is not the same as working to "the lowest common standard", and implying that it is is absolutely a straw man argument. No-one is advocating working to the lowest common standard, they are arguing that 'best possible' is not a realistic standard. boblewis wrote: When we lose the vision to strive for the best we can only drift to a lower standard.
This is also untrue, in my opinion. I strive to ensure firstly that everyone gets home safe every day, and secondly that their health is not detrimentally impacted in any way by work. Neither of those standards is the best possible. This in no way means I advocate a drift to lower standards, and it is (at best) a straw man to say that it does, in my opinion.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Even in the best managed organisations there is always objective/policy drift unless the leadership is strong enough and visionary enough to keep people following them rather than settling back into their comfort zone and re-interpretation of what is truly required. To consistently achieve the vision you have stated you need to constantly press to go higher. Take the foot of the pedal, so to speak, and people enter a coasting mode of thinking.
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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There you go using that word again -- "best". Who are these organisations that are the best managed. Better than any other organisation. Instead of using the words "best practice" and "best managed" maybe you should use the word differently.
How about "we should all strive to do the best we can". Maybe that would have a bit more resonance with other people. It would certainly make a bit more sense.
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