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SJP  
#1 Posted : 10 October 2014 09:57:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
SJP

Hi All,
Our company has recently been challenged on the scoring system used in our Risk Assessments. To cut a long story short, does the severity rating change after control measures have been in place? For example, persons working at height have the potential to drop 'things' and if it landed on a persons head, who was working underneath (because they needed to), it could cause a lost time injury. If one of the control measures is the person underneath must wear a hard hat, which would prevent an injury, then surely the severity of an accident is reduced?
A H & S employee at our clients site has indicated the severity always stays the same irrespective of the control measures - I disagree.
What is the learned opinions of fellow members of IOSH?
firesafety101  
#2 Posted : 10 October 2014 10:10:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Hazard verses risk.

The hazard is something falling from height the risk is the likelyhood of it happening and then the result.

Your hazard can always occur unless you prevent the something falling from height by using toe boards etc. Otherwise the hazard is the same.

The risk is it happening and if it does, even if it hits a hard hat it is still an accident and if it is a heavy metal tool box for example then probably a lost time accident or even fatality.

My opinion and I just putting on my Tin Hat awaiting the flack.
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 10 October 2014 10:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

What I should have added is while the hazard can remain the same the risk can be reduced so if you start with a high level of risk then remove the hazard then your outcome number can be reduced.

I suppose if you remove the risk completely the risk assessment can be binned ?

(Just tightened up my chin strap) :)
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 10 October 2014 10:22:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Right let’s take cover…
Does it really matter?
The aim of our systems is to reduce the risk to employees and others and since risk is essentially severity x likelihood does it really matter if this is achieved by reducing the severity or the likelihood or whether your particular model of risk assessment allows for a reduction in severity or not?
Invictus  
#5 Posted : 10 October 2014 10:46:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I personally think it depends on the task. If you take falling from height, put in scaffolding with all guard rails, harness etc etc. If you fell the severity wouldn't be the same if you didn't have anything in place. It could be but I am taking that you have a rescue plan etc.

If your filling batteries and wear all the PPE that required including goggles and visor if the battery exploded you would be protected so the severity of the injury is reduced. You may get the odd splash on you but you wouldn't go blind as you have protection.
rusty 01  
#6 Posted : 10 October 2014 10:46:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
rusty 01


SJP,

I have found this an age old problem (two camps of h&s).

Ask your Client does an airbag in a car reduce the likelihood of an accident or the severity?
I mainly find engineering controls reduce severity. Although some say always look to reduce likelihood, looking at both is the preferred option. reducing likelihood will reduce numbers affected etc.

I find it to be an academic question that can be argued for ever. A Harness reduces the severity of a fall from height, others say do not do the work at height and reduce the likelihood of a fall from height. but it is the situation you are faced with against cost/balance/sfarp.
FlashingBlade  
#7 Posted : 10 October 2014 11:59:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FlashingBlade

It depends on the corrective actions, doesnt it?

In most cases you are probably just reducing the likelihood of the incident occuring, not necessarily the severity should it occur. For example, working on a roof. The likelihood of falling from height is greatly reduced by the use of a edge protection but it could still happen. The severity of the fall would be exactly the same. But, if as well as edge protection, you introduced inflatable impact cushions all around the work area, the severity could well drop.

FHS  
#8 Posted : 10 October 2014 13:08:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
FHS

I think one of the reasons why this can be a difficult area is because when we undertake risk assessments we often look at the hazard itself rather than the hazardous event that allows the hazard to realise its potential to cause harm.

If we take the OPs example and rephrase it as "How can we stop someone being injured by an object falling from height", then the initial approach would be to reduce the likelihood of something falling in the first place.

But because:

a. we understand that every risk control measure can fail

b. the probable severity of being hit on the head by a falling object is severe

we introduce further controls i.e. hard hats, to reduce the severity of injury if a person is struck by a falling object.

Both these measures would have the overall effect of reducing risk of someone being injured by an object falling from height. One would reduce the likelihood the other would reduce severity.


toe  
#9 Posted : 10 October 2014 19:24:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

quote=A Kurdziel]Right let’s take cover…
Does it really matter?
The aim of our systems is to reduce the risk to employees and others and since risk is essentially severity x likelihood does it really matter if this is achieved by reducing the severity or the likelihood or whether your particular model of risk assessment allows for a reduction in severity or not?


I go with this - reduce people being injured at work does it really matter what camp you subscribe to.

PPE (with the exception of high viz) reduces severity, so to answer the OP is severity can change.
Competent training and education (for example) reduces likelihood.

David Bannister  
#10 Posted : 11 October 2014 18:53:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Take a look at this thread which had many thoughts posted:

http://forum.iosh.co.uk/...spx?g=posts&t=110625

Substituting a weak solution of caustic soda for the concentrated version would lessen the severity of any skin injury just as using a safety razor reduces the severity of cuts when compared to a cut-throat razor.
kevkel  
#11 Posted : 13 October 2014 11:43:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
kevkel

I think the answer to this one lies with the hierarchy of controls. The aim is always to prevent the incidence occurring. On the lower end of the hierarchy of controls is the reduction in severity such as the use of PPE. PPE will reduce the effects of exposure to the hazard but will not stop it from happening. In fire safety terms fire doors, compartmentation and firewalling are the same.

Then the question- does it matter as long as were are controlling hazards?
Well yes it does matter. Control measures are implemented on a prioritised basis. If you cant demonstrate how you have reduced the risk of an adverse event or the severity of that adverse event in a quantitative manner, how can you demonstrate that the correct controls are in place?
ashley.willson  
#12 Posted : 13 October 2014 12:06:19(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

SJP - Im with you.

A control is only worth having if it reduces severity or likelihood.

I understand that there are two camps however my tent is firmly pitched!

Rusty has hit the nail on the head IMO ('Ask your Client does an airbag in a car reduce the likelihood of an accident or the severity?').
The control you have mentioned will not make the hazard less likely to occur (i.e. if he is going to drop it then wearing a hard hat some metres below will not help him hold on to it...), but will reduce the severity (blunt force trauma, unconsciousness, bleeding even death VS a headache and new hard hat and possibly a bit of a shock!).

On the flip side, a toe board or catch net may reduce the likelihood but not the severity.

As for the "Does it matter?" - I second the second (?) part of kevkels post ("Then the question- does it matter as long as were are controlling hazards?
Well yes it does matter. Control measures are implemented on a prioritised basis. If you cant demonstrate how you have reduced the risk of an adverse event or the severity of that adverse event in a quantitative manner, how can you demonstrate that the correct controls are in place?").

As I said, this is my opinion and this is how I manage controls in my job. I cannot see the point in a control if you cant honestly say a control reduces risk (severity x likelihood).
toe  
#13 Posted : 13 October 2014 12:07:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

The most critical element of the RA process is identifying the hazards, how can you control a hazard if it has not been identified in the first place. The next important aspect is the risk controls. Next - the risk assessment (significant findings) must be recorded you cannot do the math with out it being recorded first. So the least and unimportant part of the assessment process (IMHO) is the risk rating. Which only serves and to prioritise the risks, however, all risk must be appropriately managed. In any matters the risk rating is very subjective.
pl53  
#14 Posted : 13 October 2014 15:14:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pl53

It depends on the nature of the hazard and the control measures you put into place. Quite often the severity of outcome will not change, only the likelihood of it happening. But not always.

If you imagine assessing the risk of crossing the road for instance. The main hazard is moving traffic. If you are hit by a car at say 40mph you are likely to be killed. If however, you introduce a speed limit of 10mph (unlikely I know, but it's only an example) then if the same car hits you the outcome is likely to be different.
Don't forget the hierarchy of control talks about eliminate, substitute, reduce, isolate etc. if you are able to apply that, then it is perfectly possible to reduce the severity of the outcome.
ExDeeps  
#15 Posted : 13 October 2014 15:34:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Hi,

Maybe it's just the way I look at the World, but to me there is an issue that no one has addressed here. In my work place we do request site of contractors RA's and we do comment back, but with a few caveats;
We never tell them the RA is wrong unless there is a technical issue that has been miss applied or not addressed.
We don't "approve" contractors RA's or insist they use "our" format - the whole reason for using a contractor is that they are the "experts" in a subject. We are the experts in how our site operates.

Ultimately, what we as the site do not want to do is tell an expert that their work planning is wrong and leave ourselves open to the possibility of being accused of telling them how to do their job.

So, commenting back, and having a discussion to understand is fine, telling someone their RA / MS is wrong is, well, wrong..! (Unless you have let a contract to a cowboy / fly by night outfit obviously). So, maybe the client guy is just having a conversation to see what's what?

Jim
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