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lisar  
#1 Posted : 16 October 2014 13:15:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lisar

During an audit, I opened a fire exit to discover I was trapped in a locked compound as the wind ever so kindly blew the door shut. This compound however does not belong to us and although we have requested that they unlock the padlocks through the day in the event of needing to evacuate that way, they are refusing. Where do we stand on this? What can I do?
Lawlee45239  
#2 Posted : 16 October 2014 13:40:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

lisar wrote:
During an audit, I opened a fire exit to discover I was trapped in a locked compound as the wind ever so kindly blew the door shut. This compound however does not belong to us and although we have requested that they unlock the padlocks through the day in the event of needing to evacuate that way, they are refusing. Where do we stand on this? What can I do?
Arrange for a visit from the local Fire Services, they can then best advise the occupant/owner of the compound.
simplesafety  
#3 Posted : 16 October 2014 13:43:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simplesafety

If its not your land and access is not granted then you might not have much choice. A final fire exit must lead to a place of ultimate safety, if this compound is not large enough to be WELL clear of the building (and any potential smoke/heat) then its not a place of safety. If negotiations with your neighbour are goin no where, I'd consider updating your fire risk assessment and look at alternative exit routes. Do you have other exits or an alternative direction to turn if this door was not used? I certainly would not want to rely on a neighbour to unlock this on a daily basis.
ExDeeps  
#4 Posted : 16 October 2014 13:49:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

I sympathise but the corollary of your post runs along the lines of "Another company has a fire escape opening into our compound which is used to store ??????? with a value of £££££££. They want us to leave the compound gates unlocked during the day in case they have a fire with the result our stuff is not secure. Can I stop them from accessing our compound through their fire exit?" As suggested I think you may need to find an alternative outcome, Jim
chris42  
#5 Posted : 16 October 2014 14:25:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Does seem odd that they build a building with an escape route onto ground that there is no right of access ( perhaps this needs to be checked). Anyway here I go again with my suggestions. If the owners are concerned about security or you are putting a duty on them to open and close the gate. Could the solution be as simple as suggesting there are two padlocks daisy chained together one of theirs and one of yours. Set up so that whichever lock is opened you can open the gate. You would put your key on the inside of the door or just by it. You would then give your word it would only be used during an emergency or test and your company would double check it was locked again afterwards. you could but suggest, they can only say yes or no. Chris
Ian Bell  
#6 Posted : 16 October 2014 14:34:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell

Its probably an old building, hence why not ideal from the fire escape point of view. Keys can get lost. Fire escapes have to be 'easily openable' i.e. spending time possibly looking for a key isn't a good idea.
mssy  
#7 Posted : 16 October 2014 17:33:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Keys are rarely acceptable except for very low risk & occupancy In this case, one poster has advise contacting the fire service. I would advise against this in the first instance. It is not the fire service's responsibility to come up with a MOE solution for the Lisar's premises. That is down to the Responsible Person (RP) of that occupancy, seeking assistance from a consultancy if necessary. Lisar, the risk of contacting the fire service as a first resort is that instead of advice (or as well as advice) you may receive an enforcement notice as it's your RP's responsibility to provide a means of escape - and not anyone else's When I was an Inspecting Officer, we received a request for similar assistance from a six storey single staircase building, whose alternative escape route over a rooftop and through a neighbouring property was no longer viable. When I arrived, I was told the neighbours had moved out and the building owners had locked the rooftop access for security taking account the building's empty status. We entered into a voluntary agreement that the complainant would not use the top two floors (instead of receiving a Prohibition Notice) until the issue was addressed. I had no option other to issue an enforcement notice simultaneously to providing advice for the complainant to seek legal assistance re an apparent breach of an old tenancy agreement. It didnt feel right to penalise someone asking for help, but I had no choice as there was a clear breach of the RRO So once again, take care seeking assistance from an enforcement authority as it can be similar to asking a traffic warden if its ok for your car to stay on this double yellow line :)
Safety Smurf  
#8 Posted : 17 October 2014 11:24:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Hi Lisa, I've got a few sites like this and I'm afraid its an issue that never seems to get fixed quickly.The process we go through is; Try and come to an agreement with the neighbours Go to the Landlord (they've probably allowed this situation to happen) but don't be suprised if they're not forthcoming (its called the occupiers liabilty, not the Landlords). If all this fails, get the local FSO involved and point out that you are being prevented from meeting your legal requirements by the inactions of others.
A Kurdziel  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2014 12:56:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Further to what safety smurf said- I shall quote from the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 “3. In this Order “responsible person” means— (a) in relation to a workplace, the employer, if the workplace is to any extent under his control; (b) in relation to any premises not falling within paragraph (a)— (i) the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or otherwise) in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or not); or (ii) the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not have control in connection with the carrying on by that person of a trade, business or other undertaking" So the other guys will have duties imposed on them and the landlord will also have to get their fingers out
mssy  
#10 Posted : 17 October 2014 16:33:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

A Kurdziel: I am not sure what you are saying here. If the open yard is mine (as a Resp Person), how have I got any duty to allow it to be used as a MOE for relevant persons to another another Resp Person's premises under Article 3 that you have quoted? I am not saying you are wrong, its that I do not follow your rationale Article 22 (Cooperation) is the most likely avenue to address this matter: _________________________________ 22. (1) Where two or more responsible persons share, or have duties in respect of, premises (whether on a temporary or a permanent basis) each such person must— (a)co-operate with the other responsible person concerned so far as is necessary to enable them to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed on them by or under this Order; (b)(taking into account the nature of his activities) take all reasonable steps to co-ordinate the measures he takes to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed on him by or under this Order with the measures the other responsible persons are taking to comply with the requirements and prohibitions imposed on them by or under this Order; and __________________________________________________ But Article 22 only applies where (Article 22(1): "responsible persons share, or have duties in respect of, premises". I take that as meaning a single premises (as in a multiple occupancy) and not the plural (as in neighbouring premises using my premises as a MOE) Any views?
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 17 October 2014 16:57:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

What I was trying to explain between meetings was that the landlord(assuming they own both sets of premises) has a shared duty a well- it’ s not just a duty on the occupier which is what Safety Smurf seemed to be saying.
Safety Smurf  
#12 Posted : 20 October 2014 09:56:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

A Kurdziel wrote:
What I was trying to explain between meetings was that the landlord(assuming they own both sets of premises) has a shared duty a well- it’ s not just a duty on the occupier which is what Safety Smurf seemed to be saying.
Depends on the terms of the lease and the extent of the demise. Generally speaking, the LL's terms and conditions will be writen in such a way as to avoid any cost or liability whilst the demises are occupied.
Invictus  
#13 Posted : 20 October 2014 10:05:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

You need to review your risk assessment as Article 14 of the FSO states that emergency exits must lead to a place of safety. This doesn't as you are then trapped in a yard close to the building. If he won't unlock it for whatever reason ask him for a key and house it next to the final exit in a break glass case.
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