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Portable smoke detectors - do they work?
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jwk  
#1 Posted : 08 December 2014 14:08:02(UTC)
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jwk
Afternoon, we send small numbers of people to other countries, usually to work with sister organisations of which there are very many. Very often fire safety is not managed to any kind of standard at all really, and one of the things we are considering is providing our people with their own portable fire detection, for when they are staying in e.g. hostels or hotels with no provision. I did a quick Google search and found one device which says it is a portable smoke detector; it is also a torch and a personal alarm, though it can't be used for removing boy-scouts from horses hooves. Does anybody have any knowledge or experience of portable smoke alarms? Are they likely to work at all, given that even small improvement in safety would be better than what we have? Answers on a festive postcard please,

John
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Mebo  
#2 Posted : 08 December 2014 14:13:00(UTC)
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Mebo
Why not just carry a stand-alone domestic smoke detector?
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A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 08 December 2014 14:22:39(UTC)
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A Kurdziel
What good would a smoke detector do in the guest’s own room? Surely the issue is with a fire breaking out let’s say in linen cupboard and not being detected. By the time the smoke reaches the guest’s room, it’s too late and the guest only wakes up to realise that they are trapped on the 15th floor with no means of escape.
The key is to place your staff with reputable hotels (perhaps more expensive chains rather than cheap but cheerful local offerings?)
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jwk  
#4 Posted : 08 December 2014 15:27:46(UTC)
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jwk
Andy,

I do agree about the smoke detectors, bear in mind though that we're just trying to make things a bit better; achieving a western standard might well be simply impossible. So I'm not after gold standard, a slightly tarnished pewter will do.

And thanks for the comments on where we put people, but bear in mind that we work in disaster zones, war ravaged areas, sometimes (though rarely) in actual combat zones and so on. Reputable chain hotels can be a bit thin on the ground. It's not penny pinching driving this, often there really is no entirely safe alternative,

John
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mssy  
#5 Posted : 08 December 2014 18:00:14(UTC)
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mssy
It is worth bearing in mind that smoke detectors in hotel bedrooms are not there to protect the occupants of that room, but to raise the alarm & warn others of a fire in that bedroom. This why heat detection is permissible in hotel bedrooms.

It seems to me that if you cant control the environment where your staff work, then you should perhaps control the risk by educating the staff to identify risks and introduce local measures where possible.

I really do not think a portable smoke detector has much value from the circumstances as described
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toe  
#6 Posted : 08 December 2014 18:59:50(UTC)
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toe
quote=mssy]It is worth bearing in mind that smoke detectors in hotel bedrooms are not there to protect the occupants of that room.


I'm not sure I understand the above statement.

JWK

I think that I get what your trying to do here, going with the concept that doing something (having portable smoke detectors) is better that having nothing at all, and fire safety in sleeping accommodation is so important. I do not have any experience with these devices and hope you manage to get something that will work for you - and yes maybe they may save a life or two.

I would also consider if you do go down this route, where in the room they will be located to get the most benefit from their use, for example, as close to the roof as possible.
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mssy  
#7 Posted : 09 December 2014 19:09:43(UTC)
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mssy
Toe wrote:
quote=mssy]It is worth bearing in mind that smoke detectors in hotel bedrooms are not there to protect the occupants of that room.


I'm not sure I understand the above statement.

JWK



The OP is - as far as I understand it - intending to place a mobile smoke detector in a hotel bedroom. My comments relate to the rationale for why Hotel bedrooms in the UK have smoke detectors in the first place

An old version of BS5839 allowed for detection in corridors only as a means for raising the alarm (for life safety purposes), including hotels .

However it was found that by the time the SD in the corridor activated, the corridor was often impassable due to smoke

A revised version of BS 5839 introduced a (category L3) detection system that had detection in the corridor and also the rooms leading onto the corridor. the rationale was and is, that the system will pick up a fire in the room & raise the alarm before smoke gets into the corridor & blocks the escape route.

Obviously, this includes hotel corridors and hotel bedrooms

Therefore, the smoke (or heat) detection in hotel bedrooms is part of a strategy to keep the means of escape corridor free and available, and is not there to protect the occupants of the room

This is why heat detection is allowed in bedrooms. heat detectors reduce unwanted fire alarm actuation, but their slow activation rate (compared to smoke detection) in effect, sacrifices those in the room, but will sound the alarm to save others.

Its hard to believe, but true

So taking a portable smoke detector does little to protect the occupant, as the most likely fire will originate away from the bedroom.


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Isaac J Threadbare  
#8 Posted : 10 December 2014 10:48:20(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
A. Kurdziel says it all IMHO.

A portable individual smoke detector in a bedroom, in a place without an alarm system is just about (just about) better than useless. It may give you time to panic or wish for rain.

A heat detector in a bedroom is less than useless unless your cooking something and don't want it burnt!

Emergency lighting should be (IMHO) placed at low level and not on ceiling.

As AK says, book a safer place to sleep.
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jwk  
#9 Posted : 10 December 2014 11:05:54(UTC)
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jwk
I know what the drawbacks are folks, but given that a) there is no 'safer place to sleep' (we are not talking Europe here, or capital cities) and b) currently there is nothing, all I would like is an opinion on whether these things work,

John
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#10 Posted : 10 December 2014 11:39:35(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
Well then, in that case #2 says it well. A domestic one £5 ish.. with a test-push. Pop it on a ceiling according to the manufactures instructions. (if the place is that bad they'll not notice a pair of small holes in the ceiling). Even then, all the above will apply.

I'd take a fire extinguisher to bed as well... just in case ;-)
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jwk  
#11 Posted : 10 December 2014 11:50:03(UTC)
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jwk
I've considered domestic smoke detectors, they would work in certain circumstances, and it's what we use when we erect semi-permanent structures (big tents mainly). To be honest I quite like the idea of a small extinguisher.... though not sure if they're permissible as luggage on planes.... ;-)

John
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#12 Posted : 10 December 2014 11:59:09(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
Big tents... jwk, I'd rely on the screams of others to wake me in that case. I would have thought that if a large tent were in flames the smoke would vent to the sky? :-) In that case I'd invest in blue-tack or string, or a small private tent a little removed for the main one. The link below looks handy though.

http://flarebrands.com/y...-detector-for-any-hotel/

If the portable Smoke Detectors have a test push, and they are installed as per manufactures instructions give them a go, what have they got to loose? Think about the last bit ;-)
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jwk  
#13 Posted : 10 December 2014 12:50:59(UTC)
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jwk
The tents aren't usually for sleeping in, just as rest areas, treatment rooms and so on. I saw the flarebrands device; it would also double as an effective emergency light, plus it's quite small. Can't quite see how it would work though,

John
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chris42  
#14 Posted : 10 December 2014 13:32:35(UTC)
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chris42
Gosh it seemed a perfectly good question.

I would have thought that if the fire starts elsewhere that any smoke to the room would come under / around the door of the bedroom and go to the ceiling. So provided you could position it high up a few minutes warning may allow a good gulp of fresh air before going out the window ( you may only be on the second floor) or if need be opening the door and running through whatever you find (even flames).

I think I would rather have a few seconds than not to decide what to do.

Apparently opinion is against the idea. I really would not have thought people would be against the idea ( I really must do some fire training)

Is there any way you could buy one and try it out ?

Chris
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jwk  
#15 Posted : 10 December 2014 13:35:34(UTC)
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jwk
Thanks Chris, I continue to think it was a good question, and I have had some useful responses. I guess it is an unusual situation, where the full weight of UK standards not only don't but simply can't apply. I guess buying and trying might be a good option,

John
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#16 Posted : 10 December 2014 14:04:02(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
This is a very good thread IMHO as it throws up a problem I for one haven't even thought about. Not my area of expertise to be honest so take no notice. But how can you try it out j?

Anyone of them should work is installed correctly. I guess they could be tested like all the other detectors but are they/would they be designed with your particular requirements? If not then the only way to really find out/test if they would work under these situations would be ... yep... you got it...
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chris42  
#17 Posted : 10 December 2014 15:55:44(UTC)
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chris42
I was thinking about sensitivity ie would a cigarette set it off or would you need the room full of smoke, a metal bucket full of smoldering wood. Perhaps the local fire brigade may be able to help test.

Would you be able to carry these devices on a plane ?

I was not being awkward for once, I genuinely didn't think they would be of little / no use. I do respect mssy's opinion on fire related issues.

Chris
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jwk  
#18 Posted : 10 December 2014 16:50:12(UTC)
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jwk
Those are good questions Chris, and to be honest I really don't know. The device Isaac has linked to looks about the size of a small torch, so yes, it would be truly portable and capable, presumably, of being carried in aeroplane luggage,

John
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chris42  
#19 Posted : 10 December 2014 16:55:16(UTC)
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chris42
Sorry I meant would the airline be willing for someone to have a small unusual electrical device in their luggage !!!

Not that they are paranoid in any way

I don't want to mention the "B" word, in case we are being watched!

Chris
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mssy  
#20 Posted : 10 December 2014 20:54:04(UTC)
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mssy
jwk wrote:
Thanks Chris, I continue to think it was a good question, and I have had some useful responses. I guess it is an unusual situation, where the full weight of UK standards not only don't but simply can't apply. I guess buying and trying might be a good option,

John


I disagree: The question was not a good one John. You started by saying the portable SD was for hostels or hotels in far flung places with 'no provision', then it was for tents, and now these tents aren't for sleeping in the first place!

When providing advice and opinion, its difficult to do so when the target is continually moving!!
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#21 Posted : 11 December 2014 08:52:19(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
I think the question goes a bit deeper than detectors?

If we are to send people into places where the Safety considerations are, shall we say, not as good as our own, should we be sending them to these places in the first instance? I can see the need to do so for commerce and profit and if that is the case then we need to ask a few fundamental and moral questions.

In this case we know the risks and we know the hazards (as jwk as stated - (moving target was a good term mssy)

So do we send people into these places without tried and tested PPE ?(I would consider a personal smoke detector in this instance to be PPE kit same as a gas detector (using 'fuzzy logic' here) This would be placing the sender in a position that could be thought of as a breach of duty of care?

If so, and I'm not sure of this as outside my comfort zone, but it seems to me to be sending people into places knowing that they are at risk would by foolhardy and asking for trouble?

If for aid workers, these people take on the risks (as far as I know) and are real hero's in my book.
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achrn  
#22 Posted : 11 December 2014 10:57:35(UTC)
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achrn
Isaac J Threadbare wrote:

So do we send people into these places without tried and tested PPE ?(I would consider a personal smoke detector in this instance to be PPE kit same as a gas detector (using 'fuzzy logic' here) This would be placing the sender in a position that could be thought of as a breach of duty of care?

If so, and I'm not sure of this as outside my comfort zone, but it seems to me to be sending people into places knowing that they are at risk would by foolhardy and asking for trouble?


So, would you also send them with an electrician to do a safety check of the accommodation wiring?

Personally, I don't think you can protect everyone from every hazard all the time, so you need to rely on them assessing things for themselves. You can't send them with the PPE for every eventuality. If you are doing business internationally, a policy of only doing business where the safety standards exceed those in the UK won't get you much business.

In my judgement, risk of fire in sleeping accommodation is sufficiently far down the list of risks that I wouldn't (personally) carry a smoke detector around with me. I don't think it will work usefully anyway - unless you stick it to the ceiling it's not going to provide much advance notice of anything. If my company issued me with one I'd say there's a near certainty that I'd 'forget' to pack it, since I can't face the aggro of trying to get something that looks like a torch but has mysterious extra circuitry within it through security. I wouldn't try and take a domestic one that looks like a plastic land-mine through security either.
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#23 Posted : 11 December 2014 11:25:50(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
achrn, I'm not sure why, but you seem to jump on every thing I write, but seeing that you asked:

'Would I send an electrician to do a safety check on accommodation wiring'? Yes, if I had reason to, such as in knowing there was a problem or a risk assessment called for it.

In some cases perhaps if someone asked to work from home and we had to install electrical kit with exposed-conductive-parts. I would like to know if the electrical system could handle the load, had the correct circuit protective devices were in place and a valid earth path...rather than put anyone at risk and seeing that the would be under my or the company's care... a BIG yes mate.

In this thread the problem are known.

Therefore, if the hazard is known then steps should (if they can be ) taken to minimise the problem IMHO
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achrn  
#24 Posted : 11 December 2014 13:09:54(UTC)
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achrn
Isaac J Threadbare wrote:

Therefore, if the hazard is known then steps should (if they can be ) taken to minimise the problem IMHO


Not in my opinion. It is not our job to resolve every conceivable possible hazard. It is not sensible risk management to equip someone with PPE for every possible eventuality.

You can identify a hazard as a known hazard and decide there is no necessity to provide yet more equipment or processes to deal with it. In my opinion, the risk of fires in normal sleeping accommodation (even relatively 'rough' accommodation) normally falls into this category. In my experience there's more risk of being electrocuted in a middle-east hotel than there is of fires in your sleep.

I don't believe you'd send an electrician on each business trip to check out the electrics in every hotel your staff stay in, even though that's a known hazard.
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#25 Posted : 11 December 2014 13:24:20(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
acrhn, every one to their own but I do wish you would read what I write on times. You seem to take what I say and put a little twist to it or not understand the point I'm making or worse trying to make out I'm saying something I'm not. My fault no doubt. I should have not have responded to your rather simple hook but I did so, so there you go, off we go on another side line.

However, I'm sure that having read what you have posted we are all hanging on your every word and I look forward to seeing the next quote in due course.
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achrn  
#26 Posted : 11 December 2014 14:36:55(UTC)
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achrn
Isaac J Threadbare wrote:
acrhn, every one to their own but I do wish you would read what I write on times. You seem to take what I say and put a little twist to it or not understand the point I'm making or worse trying to make out I'm saying something I'm not. My fault no doubt. I should have not have responded to your rather simple hook but I did so, so there you go, off we go on another side line.


What have I misrepresented? You said (direct quote) "if the hazard is known then steps should (if they can be ) taken to minimise the problem". I've read that very carefully. You say that if a hazard is known then it should be minimised.

I disagree.

I don't believe that steps should be taken to minimise every known hazard, and I don't understand how I can be misrepresenting you. Can you clarify - do you think that if a hazard is known then it should be minimised? Do you think it is part of sensible risk management to minimise every known hazard?
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jwk  
#27 Posted : 11 December 2014 14:45:07(UTC)
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jwk
mssy; tents was a digression, we already provide protection in our semi-fixed structures, my initial question was and remains far flung places with no protection where we have very limited control over the premises,

John
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jwk  
#28 Posted : 11 December 2014 14:50:23(UTC)
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jwk
Isaac; we're a not for profit, I am indeed talking about aid workers if you like. Yes, we do have to take risks where we go to, for example we currently have people in the Ebola afflicted areas of Africa. We have people in the Lebanon working with Syrian refugees (I don't think we have anybody actually in Syria or Iraq). We do provide PPE, SSOWs, safety briefings and security support. But there are limits.

HSE expect us to ensure H&S at work SFARP in the Lebanon as in Croydon, but SFARP has a slightly different meaning in the two places. So if it's reasonably practicable to improve the odds of somebody getting out of a burning hostel alive, we will,

John
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Isaac J Threadbare  
#29 Posted : 11 December 2014 14:57:18(UTC)
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Isaac J Threadbare
My thoughts are with you jwk. You can only do what you can mate. I'd get that torch thing and sort out any problems getting the thing through the airports. At least it can be used as a light :-) With the kit you guys have it should be ok I guess. I wish you all the luck in the world mate.

You views achrn are noted and put in the appropriate file.
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mssy  
#30 Posted : 11 December 2014 18:58:53(UTC)
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mssy
jwk wrote:
Isaac; we're a not for profit, I am indeed talking about aid workers if you like. Yes, we do have to take risks where we go to, for example we currently have people in the Ebola afflicted areas of Africa. We have people in the Lebanon working with Syrian refugees (I don't think we have anybody actually in Syria or Iraq). We do provide PPE, SSOWs, safety briefings and security support. But there are limits.

HSE expect us to ensure H&S at work SFARP in the Lebanon as in Croydon, but SFARP has a slightly different meaning in the two places. So if it's reasonably practicable to improve the odds of somebody getting out of a burning hostel alive, we will,

John


Is the no Govt assistance available (in terms of RA advice) from the Foreign Office or MoD (who have 1000s of staff overseas) or the Dept for Overseas Development?

How about Oxfam and other NGOs? is there no central forum for sharing advice. Seems like there should be!!!
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toe  
#31 Posted : 12 December 2014 00:20:19(UTC)
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toe
JWK,

My thoughts are also with you. I too hope you find something that works for your purpose. Your guys do a great job in these areas and its refreshing that someone like you are trying to look after their wellbeing, in the difficult circumstances that they are exposed to.
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jwk  
#32 Posted : 12 December 2014 09:19:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk
mssy; we are one of the organisations that writes the guidance for overseas NGOs. We have been in the business of providing help for people in high risk areas for 150 years as a UK body, and over 160 as a worldwide movement. And yes, the UK government does provide some information, as do the other NGOs you mention, and we do share information, but there's always new situations and new ideas, which is why I posed my question.

Just by the by, we do operate extensivley in the UK as well, and we also use our UK experience to guide what we do overseas; here in the UK though we can use hotels with reasonable standards ;-)

John
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