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Define confined space that fal under the Regs
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hammer1  
#1 Posted : 21 January 2015 17:19:43(UTC)
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hammer1
Would cold water storage tanks be classed as confined space's under the regulations?

Thanks in advance
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David Bannister  
#2 Posted : 21 January 2015 17:24:59(UTC)
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David Bannister
Take a look at The Regs, specifically 1, (2) (c) which talks about drowning being a specified risk.

The answer is therefore "Yes"
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jwk  
#3 Posted : 21 January 2015 17:27:52(UTC)
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jwk
A confined space is one where there is a defined risk arising from the foloowing hazards:

Flammable substances and oxygen enrichment
Toxic gas fume of vapour
Oxygen deficiency
Ingress or presence of liquids
Solid materials which can flow
Excessive heat

The actual nature of the space has a very wide definition, which does specifically include tanks. Your cold water tank is a confined space and should be subject to risk assessment as such. Even if it is empty I would think that several of the above llist might be present,

John
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hammer1  
#4 Posted : 21 January 2015 17:30:45(UTC)
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hammer1
David Bannister wrote:
Take a look at The Regs, specifically 1, (2) (c) which talks about drowning being a specified risk.

The answer is therefore "Yes"



There be no drowning when the Tank is drained and supply cut off?. Would it fall under Confined Space only when persons are to say re-line the tank, otherwise when in operation there will never be anyone entering it??

Can understand thought process where confined spaces can be used as workplaces (tank being drained to re-lined etc) but only as and when it is required??

Sorry if being silly just need to under the thought process on this.

Thanks
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hammer1  
#5 Posted : 21 January 2015 17:34:18(UTC)
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hammer1
jwk wrote:
A confined space is one where there is a defined risk arising from the foloowing hazards:

Flammable substances and oxygen enrichment
Toxic gas fume of vapour
Oxygen deficiency
Ingress or presence of liquids
Solid materials which can flow
Excessive heat

The actual nature of the space has a very wide definition, which does specifically include tanks. Your cold water tank is a confined space and should be subject to risk assessment as such. Even if it is empty I would think that several of the above llist might be present,

John


But there would be no defined risk when tank is in operation as no one will be getting into it and then if they do it is drained, supply isolated, and when works to be completed, contractors supply RAMS covering confined space, its just I have covered 1000's of buildings over the years and never seen a RA in regards to confined space for CWS tanks unless works are to commence within the tanks.
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hammer1  
#6 Posted : 21 January 2015 19:26:29(UTC)
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hammer1
Just received this as a reply;

It depends on the size of the CWS cistern & if the entire lid can be removed or weather entry & egress is only supplied via a inspection hatch.

If only a small hatch in a large CWS Cistern, the contractor typically pumps a fresh air supply into the cistern to promote air turn over, thus reducing pockets of oxygen depleted air at low levels of the CWS Cistern. The alternative is to use air monitoring.

Occasionally, I have seen operatives wearing gas monitoring packs, which alarm if any noxious gases or oxygen depleted air are detected but they are only really used in very large cisterns or underground tanks or water service reservoirs.

Entry in the CWS Cistern is typically a two man job, one inside, with a harness & lanyard so the operative can been recovered in the event of collapse without others having to enter.
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stonecold  
#7 Posted : 22 January 2015 08:19:33(UTC)
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stonecold
If entry to the tank is via a hatch it is a confined space wheter its full of water or empty.
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RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 22 January 2015 08:22:26(UTC)
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RayRapp
From what you describe it does sound like a confined space entry. Notwithstanding that, the point of the exercise is to ensure the hazards have been identified and appropriate controls in place, regardless of whether it's a confined space per se.
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PIKEMAN  
#9 Posted : 22 January 2015 09:39:33(UTC)
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PIKEMAN
The thing everyone is missing is the part of the regs that says "by virtue of its enclosed nature".

In which case, in my view, this IS a confined space. I have a lot of experience of managing confined space entry in hazardous environments and I would strongly advise CAUTION. Sure, water is a hazard here but also lack of oxygen could also be an issue. Without being patronising, if you have to ask this type of question, you need some experienced support. Hold back, get good advice and don't be pushed into this. People are killed in confined spaces, never forget that. The HSE ACOP on this is a great source of information. I hope this helps.
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rockybalboa  
#10 Posted : 22 January 2015 10:42:23(UTC)
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rockybalboa
Pikeman wrote:
The thing everyone is missing is the part of the regs that says "by virtue of its enclosed nature".

In which case, in my view, this IS a confined space. I have a lot of experience of managing confined space entry in hazardous environments and I would strongly advise CAUTION. Sure, water is a hazard here but also lack of oxygen could also be an issue. Without being patronising, if you have to ask this type of question, you need some experienced support. Hold back, get good advice and don't be pushed into this. People are killed in confined spaces, never forget that. The HSE ACOP on this is a great source of information. I hope this helps.


thumbs up to Pikeman's post
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achrn  
#11 Posted : 22 January 2015 10:50:43(UTC)
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achrn
Pikeman wrote:
The thing everyone is missing is the part of the regs that says "by virtue of its enclosed nature".

In which case, in my view, this IS a confined space.


I don't think we know enough about the space to make that assertion.

The cold water tank in the building I'm currently sitting in has a top that comes off entirely. It measures something like 3m x 6m but is only a touch over 1m deep. Once drained, there's no possible way it can fill suddenly - the supply pipes are too small, and if every valve is open wide it takes hours to fill. It's no more a confined space than is my daughter's paddling-pool.
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hammer1  
#12 Posted : 22 January 2015 18:25:50(UTC)
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hammer1
achrn wrote:
Pikeman wrote:
The thing everyone is missing is the part of the regs that says "by virtue of its enclosed nature".

In which case, in my view, this IS a confined space.


I don't think we know enough about the space to make that assertion.

The cold water tank in the building I'm currently sitting in has a top that comes off entirely. It measures something like 3m x 6m but is only a touch over 1m deep. Once drained, there's no possible way it can fill suddenly - the supply pipes are too small, and if every valve is open wide it takes hours to fill. It's no more a confined space than is my daughter's paddling-pool.


Thanks, it was this type of tank I was referring too, maybe I should of informed the size at the beginning of post. However all other replies are good to know so thanks all those who did.

Cheers
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imwaldra  
#13 Posted : 23 January 2015 10:55:29(UTC)
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imwaldra
Glad you have the info you require. But other readers please note that confinement alone isn't the definition. There also has to be a source of hazard, either within the space or via a connection, e.g. a pipe that's not been isolated.

If limited access was the only requirement, then all our lofts at home would be 'confined spaces' - and they aren't!
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