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ivorheadache  
#1 Posted : 23 January 2015 11:39:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ivorheadache

We have had an accident to a staff member who is a home worker in the sense that he starts his working day from his home location. He slipped on his driveway whilst walking to his car in the morning. I'd appreciate any thoughts as to whether this should be reported/recorded as a work related accident. Not RIDDOR this one but any opinions would be interesting to know. Thanks
Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 23 January 2015 12:31:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

IMHO as the employee is designated a Home Worker and as such "at work" I would record the fact they have had an incident / injury (yes I appreciate there will probably be much debate about travel to and from a place of employment etc.) and my reasoning being that whilst they may feel fine today sprained joints etc. could be a potential contributory factor in later ill health / absence being pursued by ambulance chasers, in which case your insurers would appreciate there being at least a record of incident even though the location is entirely beyond the scope of your control. More importantly because the employee considering them self to be at work has informed his employer in line with your company accident/incident recording policy.
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 23 January 2015 12:31:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

IMHO as the employee is designated a Home Worker and as such "at work" I would record the fact they have had an incident / injury (yes I appreciate there will probably be much debate about travel to and from a place of employment etc.) and my reasoning being that whilst they may feel fine today sprained joints etc. could be a potential contributory factor in later ill health / absence being pursued by ambulance chasers, in which case your insurers would appreciate there being at least a record of incident even though the location is entirely beyond the scope of your control. More importantly because the employee considering them self to be at work has informed his employer in line with your company accident/incident recording policy.
nicholaish  
#4 Posted : 23 January 2015 12:32:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
nicholaish

I would suggest not a RIDDOR as its his home, which you have no control over.
Lawlee45239  
#5 Posted : 23 January 2015 12:39:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

ivorheadache wrote:
We have had an accident to a staff member who is a home worker in the sense that he starts his working day from his home location. He slipped on his driveway whilst walking to his car in the morning. I'd appreciate any thoughts as to whether this should be reported/recorded as a work related accident. Not RIDDOR this one but any opinions would be interesting to know. Thanks
What does your home working policy state? Was it in work hours that he had the fall, or was he running personal errands? If this is the normal work situation, and he carries out work from home, then perhaps you need to conduct a site visit? Whereby you assess his workstation also? I dont know the line of work, but would DSE/VDU come into play, and assessment of such?
chris42  
#6 Posted : 23 January 2015 13:24:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Is he being paid from the moment he closes the front door ? or only paid when he reaches the place of work. May help you decide. If this is an internal report, do you need / want to know about these type of accidents? Chris
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 23 January 2015 13:33:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Ok since I have my own similar thread:’ I never thought I would have to ask this but…is this a RIDDOR?’ I might as well add my bit. I’d say he was on the way to work so I would not report it any more than if he slipped at the bus stop or at train station going into work.
gramsay  
#8 Posted : 23 January 2015 13:40:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

How does starting your work day from home make you a home worker? Unless we're travelling, we all start our work day from home, and the risks are the same for all of us. RIDDOR is about statistics and identifying potentially hazardous workplaces - doesn't confusing the issue by telling them about Mr Jones' garden gnome trip hazard harm us all by deflecting attention from genuinely dangerous practices?
gramsay  
#9 Posted : 23 January 2015 13:42:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

gramsay wrote:
How does starting your work day from home make you a home worker? Unless we're travelling, we all start our work day from home, and the risks are the same for all of us.
Sorry, I meant the risks on exiting our own house are the same for us whether we're travelling to the same office every day, or a different client location every day.
ivorheadache  
#10 Posted : 23 January 2015 14:04:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ivorheadache

Thanks guys for all the great responses. Roundtuit (I never got one of them!!). I think you are on the button. Report anyway. Perhaps if this was RIDDOR then I could have added more detail. This employee works away from the home for the working day carrying out inspections, the home is the designated start / end to the IP’s working day and hours are flexible. To clarify this accident occurred when the IP was going to the car in the morning to start his working day. I know this area is grey and this is why I thought I would open up for debate. As any employee the IP will carry out home working so it is our policy for them to carry out self - assessments for the home environment every 6 monthly which we provide forms and guidance. But I guess the point I’m making is how can an employer be responsible for an employee leaving for work slipping on their own driveway? If this was RIDDOR i.e employee being off >7 days, was this work related accident? So would it be reportable? Opinions are appreciated,
ptaylor14  
#11 Posted : 23 January 2015 14:19:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ptaylor14

ivorheadache wrote:
We have had an accident to a staff member who is a home worker in the sense that he starts his working day from his home location. He slipped on his driveway whilst walking to his car in the morning. I'd appreciate any thoughts as to whether this should be reported/recorded as a work related accident. Not RIDDOR this one but any opinions would be interesting to know. Thanks
What practically can be done? Are you going to tarmac his drive? I would just record it as walking to the car is not a work activity in this sense.
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 23 January 2015 15:36:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Every morning upto 20 idiots try to kill themselves trying to get across the main road near our site. I have sent out warnings etc but when I get asked ‘if one of them s to get killed would it be a RIDDOR?’ I say no as they on the way to work not at work. They are only at work when they come through the site entrance. Similarly when we managed inspectors they were only at work once they visited their first clients.
Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 23 January 2015 16:48:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Definitely never a RIDDOR as the occurrence is on route to a place of work at a location beyond the employers control - for the majority of UK residents (including for example HGV drivers leaving home for their depot) travel is covered by common sense, natural selection, fate and the Road Traffic Act. Apparently there are 20 individuals pushing their luck against fate and natural selection through lacking common sense and reliant upon the conduct of others being in accordance with the road Traffic Act in A Kurdziels part of the UK.
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 23 January 2015 16:48:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Definitely never a RIDDOR as the occurrence is on route to a place of work at a location beyond the employers control - for the majority of UK residents (including for example HGV drivers leaving home for their depot) travel is covered by common sense, natural selection, fate and the Road Traffic Act. Apparently there are 20 individuals pushing their luck against fate and natural selection through lacking common sense and reliant upon the conduct of others being in accordance with the road Traffic Act in A Kurdziels part of the UK.
ivorheadache  
#15 Posted : 23 January 2015 16:52:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ivorheadache

Thanks all. Plenty of food for thought. I have plenty to discuss this with my colleagues at out next H&S meeting. Have a great weekend.
chris42  
#16 Posted : 23 January 2015 16:58:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Sorry my earlier response was taking the original posters comment that they knew it was not RIDDOR into account and that this was just an internal record. Thing is you never seem to get all the info. Was for instance the IP carrying a load of heavy equipment from his home to his company vehicle which he needed for his job. Said equipment is not allowed to be left in company vehicle overnight. If this was the case then I would say he was working. or Was he just walking to get in. In which case not at work The devil is always in the detail. Likelihood is not working, but just because he has not passed through some gates to a building does not necessarily mean he has not started work (does it). All IMHO Chris
Roundtuit  
#17 Posted : 23 January 2015 17:27:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks to mobile phones, and "on-call" systems it could even be the case that you don't even get chance for your feet to swing out of bed before you are working ;-)
Roundtuit  
#18 Posted : 23 January 2015 17:27:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Thanks to mobile phones, and "on-call" systems it could even be the case that you don't even get chance for your feet to swing out of bed before you are working ;-)
toe  
#19 Posted : 24 January 2015 12:39:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

quote=ivorheadache]We have had an accident to a staff member who is a home worker in the sense that he starts his working day from his home location. He slipped on his driveway whilst walking to his car in the morning. I'd appreciate any thoughts as to whether this should be reported/recorded as a work related accident. Not RIDDOR this one but any opinions would be interesting to know. Thanks
I'm not sure the definition of a home worker is a person who starts his working day from home. A home worker is someone who works from home. I guess that that we all start our working day from home. Is his vehicle classed as his workplace? (as with a HGV driver) and if so, then he was traveling to work because he didn't get to his car. Just some thoughts.....
bob youel  
#20 Posted : 25 January 2015 12:13:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

lets make it very clear where a person is going from their home [their home could be a hotel room] to a none-permanent place of work they are at work from the moment they leave their permanent residence and set foot on the public highway/public area and it is from that point that all the laws apply and vice-verse when they are going home a none-permanent place of work as they finish work when they arrive at home and not just as they leave that none-permanent place of work Background: Many many many years ago the HSE took their guidance and stance from the inland revenue's* position, law and guidance + case law [the IR's position is tougher but less complicated than the HSE's re this area but that is another story]
firesafety101  
#21 Posted : 25 January 2015 13:51:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I have been self employed for the past ten years or so and work at/from home. I do not have another work base. I have an employee who also works at my home, she is my wife. If she or I walks to the car because we are doing some work and an accident occurs I am sure it will be an "at work accident". When working as a Consultant and employed by a Consultancy I was also working from home, only required to call in at the office/HQ periodically therefore when walking to the car bedore driving on a work matter, if I had an accident it would be work related.
firesafety101  
#22 Posted : 25 January 2015 13:53:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

IMHO there are too many people being too hasty to say no to reporting accidents.
toe  
#23 Posted : 25 January 2015 22:08:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

quote=bob youel]lets make it very clear where a person is going from their home [their home could be a hotel room] to a none-permanent place of work they are at work from the moment they leave their permanent residence and set foot on the public highway/public area and it is from that point that all the laws apply and vice-verse when they are going home a none-permanent place of work as they finish work when they arrive at home and not just as they leave that none-permanent place of work Background: Many many many years ago the HSE took their guidance and stance from the inland revenue's* position, law and guidance + case law [the IR's position is tougher but less complicated than the HSE's re this area but that is another story]
This is surprising - because for taxation purposes when you are claiming traveling expenses the inland revenue states you are only able to claim the taxation mileage driven after removing your traveling distance mileage to your normal workplace.
bobhan  
#24 Posted : 26 January 2015 15:13:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bobhan

The IP is at work reportable. claimable debatable.
bob youel  
#25 Posted : 26 January 2015 17:29:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

we have some really great debates here do we not and discuss things that many do not want to get involved with and further to the Toe's true comment; As far as I am aware, noting my own experience with the IR, Toe's comments only apply where a person has a permanent place of work and the rule** does not apply where a person does not have a permanent place of work [**noting that companies play with IR rules etc. to suit their own purposes towards their employees] I made things simple in my initial comment but hey ho it helps stimulate conversation; and an interesting question would be ; "what would the outcome be if somebody working at different places each day so no permanent place of work exists but at work as they were leaving their house left their door got into their car which is parked on their private drive e.g. not a public highway, and then knocked somebody down before they reached the public highway? - interesting situation/discussion point noting that they were at work?
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