I am new to construction work and have noted the use of a work at height permit to work. can someone tell me please: what value does this document add to a safe system of work.

Thanks for your reply: I think that in your 2nd para you have pretty much described the typical ingredients of a safe system of work. I would expect that all these and other issues would be dealt with within RAMS and that from my recent experience I see that RAMS are approved before allowing a 'high risk' activity to begin. Your final para confirms what I think - i.e. a WAH PTW is simply another piece of paper that says what the risk assessment SHOULD say. It's only value in my eyes is that it is an opportunity to discuss with the individual/s that will are to do the WAH what the essential arrangements are.

As someone who regularly monitors contractors who are working at height, let me say that there are just certain circumstances where we employ a PtW system/document, and this is where the contractors are made aware that their job will be MONITORED, they are made aware that the boxes they/we have ticked will be confirmed during the job. It's a useful management tool, it avoids silly arguments when work is in progress as we have risk-assessed the job properly and agreed in writing what the controls are. PtW is often used when a new contractor is involved, and when certain controls are required e.g. use of harnesses, putting covers over rooflights, taping off a MEWP work area, work that requires brick-guards on scaffolding - the things that a complacent contractor might get careless with. John

Personally, I believe that a PtW should only be used for high risk activities such as, confined space working, with the rare exception. There is danger of using a PtW for more routine tasks which I will include W@H, where with proper controls in place there should be no need to have a PtW. I would be concerned if contractors need that level of supervision - they should be competent for the task they undertake and need no more than monitoring from time to time. Another example of a PtW system where there may not be a high risk per se is when a contractor is working on the premises or infrastructure of a client. Although it is referred to as a PtW it is really a register identifying the type of work, areas, workforce, supervisor's contact details and possibly some other information.

For me, it's a chance to talk to the contractors, make them aware of our rules and procedures, check they have the correct documentation (any certificate or card numbers are written on the permit), check their competence and ensure they are using the correct equipment in a proper manner and to attach RAMS to. Once all these criteria are met, they are issued with a PTW to enable them to start the job. We don't have tick boxes on our Permits, just boxes to write in so each permit is done individually identifying the specific risks through discussion with the contractor and experience of the task.

Ray, yes in an ideal world PtW should be assigned to only high risk activities. Competent contractors will work competently. In the examples I listed above I have observed my customers' contractors not working safely e.g. not wearing harnesses, not putting in place edge protection etc., and so their work at height has become a 'high risk activity' without those controls in place. Without any supervison/monitoring their poor work practices would have been missed and allowed to continue. (stonecold said something similar on his thread) So PtW becomes the norm for certain jobs where we want to check that controls are in place as agreed when the PtW was completed, and the contractor will know the work will be checked while it's in progress. Yes, if there is a problem with contractors, I do sometimes suggest to clients to employ more competent contractors, but that is their decision.

The PTW is not only to ensure that contractors are working compentently and doing what it says in the RA. It is about a live piece of work going to take place that examines all aspects of safety. For example, you could get a brilliantly competent contractor but will they know the ground they are about to erect on? Will they know all the dynamic hazards tha can appear on the site? There are a number of things that could be different today when W@H than will be there tomorrow so it is a good opportunity to review and ensre that the job is done safely. Just my opinion. Kevin

So, what did you do about it? It's a management tool so the manager or supervisor is responsible for operating his PtW system. And you have a duty to alert management of any failings in procedures. I have never met a perfect scaffolder. I have met many (like you describe) who 'want to get on with job' and it's usually so they can work quickly and move on to another job on another site. And usually they are in such a hurry that they don't follow the NASC guidelines during erection. I will tell them that a PtW does not take long if they can convince me they have planned all the controls to minimise risk and will follow those plans. Yes, and having observed scaffolders and other persons working unsafely at height, despite their years of training and experience, I find it is usually a sensible decision to asses if a contractor's attitude warrants a PtW, and monitoring to ensure the agreed controls stay in place. In my experience an accident report takes longer to complete than a PtW. I'm sure preparing for a court appearance would take even longer, mountains of paperwork and pools of sweat; thankfully I've not had to do that in 16 years in an H&S role (he says touching nearby wooden window-sill :o)

Ray, I appreciate your comment there, and yes paperwork was mentioned earlier, but for me the important part of PtW is the conversation with the contractor, looking him in the eye as we agree the controls that WILL be put in place throughout the job, and yes we WILL be monitoring and checking, at some time, that those controls are in place, and I might just be a consultant doing this but any non-compliance and your future contracts are at risk. The bit of paper might be important if they make a mistake. (MEWPs and rooflights, I see contractors around them almost every week, and every week or so on the HSE press releases a court case/conviction where someone was injured or died doing those kind of jobs) http://press.hse.gov.uk/release-type/press/ anyway, back to Liverpool vs Spurs :o)

Wow - a great reaction with lots of passion, thanks. With 10/12 MEWPs and several scaffold erections / dismantles per day - lots to do.

Yes Frank. I recognise my own limitations that is precisely why I asked the question. As I have said I am new to construction however have only 30+ years as a H&S Manager. No need to worry though I will weigh up the information here and discuss with other construction H&S people.

Sorry if you took my comment in a negative way. It wasn't intended to be so. I just assumed there would be somebody in your new company/new environment who could explain why they use or don't use the PTW system.