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philb  
#1 Posted : 09 March 2015 11:09:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
philb

I am seeking views on the definition of construction work in regard to CDM 2015. It seems to me the definition of construction work 2(1)e has not changed but in the 2007 ACoP a list of what was not considered as construction work was included (para 13) and this is not within the current draft guidance. Putting up marquees and planting trees is currently not considered construction work nor is general maintenance of fixed plant (with some qualification) - what are forum members views. Will general maintenance of fixed plant (air conditioning, heating and ventilation, fire and security alarms, lifts,etc etc ) now fall into this ? - if so presumably so will planting trees and putting up tents. I'm not arguing these activities should not be properly and thoroughly planned and carried out safely but the paperwork burden of the production of cp plans will be enormous and at odds with the HSE's stated aim to cut bureaucracy.
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 09 March 2015 11:53:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Phil, good question. In my opinion putting up marquees and planting trees still do not come within the ambit of CDM 2015. However, it appears that general maintenance of fixed plant is included within the regs as per (e) below. I also agree that the bureaucracy, work and cost which is involved will add a significant burden, I cannot understand the thinking of the HSE on this particular aspect of CDM. (e) the installation, commissioning, maintenance, repair or removal of mechanical, electrical, gas, compressed air, hydraulic, telecommunications, computer or similar services which are normally fixed within or to a structure, Ray
paulw71  
#3 Posted : 09 March 2015 12:25:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

I think the increased need for CPP`s on small projects is why the HSE keep banging on about the new mobile phone app for smaller builders (and no doubt other basic CPP software that will be probably be released) and hence the inclusion of the last part of "Reg 2 interpretation" (2).
lwthesm  
#4 Posted : 09 March 2015 16:33:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lwthesm

Putting up marquees now counts as a temporary structure and WILL come under the new CDM as will domestic work and it is having a HUGE knock on effect in the entertainment industry. The HSE has increased the amount of paper based bureaucracy and for those of us working in theatre it's a complete nightmare.
Ron Hunter  
#5 Posted : 09 March 2015 16:48:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

lwthesm wrote:
Putting up marquees now counts as a temporary structure and WILL come under the new CDM .
Says who?
achrn  
#6 Posted : 09 March 2015 17:00:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

lwthesm wrote:
Putting up marquees now counts as a temporary structure and WILL come under the new CDM as will domestic work and it is having a HUGE knock on effect in the entertainment industry. The HSE has increased the amount of paper based bureaucracy and for those of us working in theatre it's a complete nightmare.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/en...eatre-tv/open-letter.pdf It certainly seems to have caused a lot of panic in the entertainments industry, but it's not clear to me why. A lot of the panic has the same flavour as the panic CDM induced in architects way back when it was first introduced, but the building industry seems to have survived somehow. I'm not sure why CDM2015 would have already increased the amount of paper based bureaucracy, given that it's not yet in force. Can you elaborate on that?
RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 09 March 2015 20:30:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I have read the letter achrn has kindly provided a link, but it does not specifically mention marquees or trees. I have yet to read anything where the aforementioned are covered by CDM 2015.
ashleywillson  
#8 Posted : 10 March 2015 07:13:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ashleywillson

In my opinion the list in the 2007 ACoP will still stand. I think that this is a reasonable assumption as the changes to CDM are not about re-defining construction but are focused on different issues (communication, duty holders, notification of projects etc etc). When the new ACoP is (eventually...) released hopefully it will maintain this information although it is apparently going to be significantly shorter so who knows...
Alfasev  
#9 Posted : 10 March 2015 09:45:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

I agree with lwthesm, a marquee is a prefabricated/temporary structure under the regulations and this was one of the reasons that the events industry kicked up. The new regs have widened the meaning of construction and I am not saying it makes sense. However the CPP only has to be in proportion to the risks. The law about controlling risks has not actually changed and most reputable companies are adequately controlling the risks. On colossal projects the CPP is not a single document and not held in one place. But what they do is ensure that the information required to adequately control the risks are cascaded down to the individual sites. A similar approach can be taken for small jobs. In the example of the marquee the CPP can consist of a site specific risk assessment and method statement, and company’s policies and procedures. It does not all have to be onsite.
lwthesm  
#10 Posted : 10 March 2015 09:53:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lwthesm

Temporary structure. Any temporary structure that is constructed. I agree there does seem to be a lot of panic, mainly to do with "Designers". The responsibilities are not vastly different to how things work now but for a large touring company, who may have upwards of 30 technicians on site at any one time will it become "notifiable"? The HSE will be swamped! There are a lot of discussions and meetings going on just now but I doubt anything will be resolved before the April deadline.
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 10 March 2015 10:37:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

CDM2015 will be implemented and resolved all the quicker if we cease attempting to redefine terms already defined! Both Construction work and STRUCTURE are already defined in Regulation 2. The whole emphasis accords with that given in Annex 1 of the Parent Directive. "Marquees" do not fit within the given definitions, and are not a "temporary structure" in the context of formwork, falsework, etc.
achrn  
#12 Posted : 10 March 2015 10:50:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Alfasev wrote:
I agree with lwthesm, a marquee is a prefabricated/temporary structure under the regulations and this was one of the reasons that the events industry kicked up. The new regs have widened the meaning of construction and I am not saying it makes sense.
As a straight matter of fact, no, the CDM 2015 regulations have NOT widened the meaning of construction. The definitions in CDM 2015 and CDM 2007 are word-for-word identical. “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes— (a) the construction, alteration, conversion, fitting out, commissioning, renovation, repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water or an abrasive at high pressure or the use of corrosive or toxic substances), de-commissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure; (b) the preparation for an intended structure, including site clearance, exploration, investigation (but not site survey) and excavation, and the clearance or preparation of the site or structure for use or occupation at its conclusion; (c) the assembly on site of prefabricated elements to form a structure or the disassembly on site of prefabricated elements which, immediately before such disassembly, formed a structure; (d) the removal of a structure or of any product or waste resulting from demolition or dismantling of a structure or from disassembly of prefabricated elements which immediately before such disassembly formed such a structure; and (e) the installation, commissioning, maintenance, repair or removal of mechanical, electrical, gas, compressed air, hydraulic, telecommunications, computer or similar services which are normally fixed within or to a structure, but does not include the exploration for or extraction of mineral resources or activities preparatory thereto carried out at a place where such exploration or extraction is carried out;
Alfasev  
#13 Posted : 10 March 2015 10:51:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

Sorry disagree, a marquee is a prefabricated structure. “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes— (c) the assembly on site of prefabricated elements to form a structure or the disassembly on site of the prefabricated elements which, immediately before such disassembly, formed a structure; “structure” means— (a) any building, timber, masonry, metal or reinforced concrete structure, railway line or siding, tramway line, dock, harbour, inland navigation, tunnel, shaft, bridge, viaduct, waterworks, reservoir, pipe or pipeline, cable, aqueduct, sewer, sewage works, gasholder, road, airfield, sea defence works, river works, drainage works, earthworks, lagoon, dam, wall, caisson, mast, tower, pylon, underground tank, earth retaining structure or structure designed to preserve or alter any natural feature and fixed plant; (b) any structure similar to anything specified in paragraph (a);
Ron Hunter  
#14 Posted : 10 March 2015 12:00:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

We'll agree to diagree. Good luck with your Health and Safety Files.
Alfasev  
#15 Posted : 10 March 2015 12:23:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

Thanks Ron, I am lucky not to be in a position to decide for real, all my stuff is clearly construction. Time will tell.
paulw71  
#16 Posted : 10 March 2015 12:53:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

paulw71  
#17 Posted : 10 March 2015 13:00:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

Below taken from HSE website Are the CDM Regulations enforced at events? The erection of some temporary demountable structures at entertainment events falls within the definition of ‘construction work’ in regulation 2(1) of the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2007 (CDM). However, HSE policy is that the CDM Regulations do not provide a useful regulatory framework for temporary structures used in the entertainment industry. This is because the CDM Regulations were specifically drafted for the procurement and delivery of projects in the construction industry. The processes and management arrangements in the entertainment industry can be significantly different. Instead, organisers and their contactors should focus on compliance with The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, Management of Health and Safety Regulations 1999 and other relevant regulations (eg Work at Height Regulations 2005).
RayRapp  
#18 Posted : 10 March 2015 14:21:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Presumably marquees erected within a 'commercial' activity will have the necessary h&s input with or without CDM. So to play Devil's advocate - what about marquees erected in a 'domestic' environment, such as weddings, garden parties, fetes, etc. Will these fall under CDM, especially as domestic clients now have duties (transferred to the contractor or PC etc) pursuant to CDM 2015?
Riches22135  
#19 Posted : 31 March 2015 11:49:18(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Riches22135

I note with interest the debate on marquees at events and whether or not they will fall in scope of the new CDM 2015. I can assure you that they will as will a whole manner of other activities that although once fell within scope were not enforced by the HSE because they once did not feel that CDM was the right fit for the entertainment industry. To answer one statement about prefabrication, most TDS is prefab in some way or another, otherwise it would not be commercially viable. It is the activity of installing this that falls under the new enforcement rules, it has always been CDM as it is and always has been construction activity. Event sites do share some of the same risks of traditional construction in that we have plant and machinery, work at height, manual handling, lifting activities with cranes, hot works etc.. therefore it is no surprise that this has come to light under the review of the Directive and more notably as a direct result of the work the HSE undertook during the London Olympics. With regard to weddings and other domestic parties, yes, it falls in to scope. How this will be monitored or enforced will be an interesting watch. The HSE are keen to stress that they will enforce based on risk proportions however it will still come in to law on 6th April 2015. As a member of at least three national committees in the event industry I am fairly close to this and am involved in work directly with the HSE to form the targeted guidance for stages and outdoor events. As a side issue I (as in Star Events Ltd with Roger Barrett) have also just been involved in putting together a new guidance document just for stages, you can download a copy at http://www.stareventsltd...ractice-Star-Events1.pdf As for all the other questions in relation to CDM and events, it will affect us all in some way or another. CP Plans will be required to be appended to event management plans or safety files but do not need to be 500 pages, if it just signposts where the info is in the EMP, then this is going to be adequate for H&S enforcement purposes. The key new things we will be looking to improve at events that are currently not well managed are, sanitary conveniences, welfare in general and being given time to plan and deliver the job safely. The CP Plan has a special definition in law, therefore it will not be enough just to say that the info is in the EMP. With regard to how the terminology maps over from traditional construction to events, I think a new colloquial term will become common soon and that will be the 'client group', ie the client, the promoter, the agent(s) and the production company. All the others will feed information in to this group who will provide the EMP which will include the CPP. I know that many other groups are involved in helping their members, ie ABTT, PLASA, PSA, PACT, NAA, NOEA and so on, so if you are members of any of these groups, get in touch with your representative. If changing sets between Acts in a theatre production is in scope, you can pretty much imagine that most other things could fall in as well. This will be fine for big events, or those managed by seasoned professionals, I will be keen to see what happens in the smaller, or community based events. The key message is this, nothing major is changing, we are already doing a majority of the requirements under CDM 2007 and many of us are already using CDM principals to plan event safety. All we are adding is a CPP that is proportionate to the risks to ensure that the construction and de-rig of an event is co-ordinated and safe, that has to be right, right? As a safety professional I am in favour, if I was an event organiser, I might be slightly worried, but that is only because of the extremely poor way in which this consultation and delivery has been handled and the fact that there hasn't been any focused education from the HSE to ensure that lay people know about this. How many events are there in the UK every year? We will probably never know but I'd imagine its in the hundreds of thousands (incl. domestic using TDS) and there aren't that many registered event organisers, so who are all the others?
signals  
#20 Posted : 10 April 2015 11:56:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
signals

This will be an absolute nightmare on a Managed Portfolio and for Housing Associations who are continually involving more than one contractor in repairing, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance tasks. However we need ensure that in order not to get tied up with a mountain of extra paper work that we interpret the regulations sensibly and ensure that it is proportionate to the task being undertaken. That's my pennies worth.
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