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gareth-sellers  
#1 Posted : 26 March 2015 15:37:16(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
gareth-sellers

good afternoon, I have an employee who is required to do a job using his respiratory protective equipment that he was fit tested for, he has since grown a beard and says he cant complete the task (which he is right to do as we wouldn't want to endanger him)
can we as a company require him to be clean shaven to the standard at the time of fit testing?
the task is required for roughly 6 hours spaced over a month period.
for all other tasks which involves dust we use air flow helmets with correct filters but the task in question involves placing a product in solvent liquid and its the only task we do which involves solvents.
any advice is greatly appreciated

thanks in advance
gaz sellers
A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 26 March 2015 15:43:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

It depends on the terms and conditions of the contract of employment. If he has a religious reason for wearing his beard then you can’t ask him to shave it off.
You could make all of this moot by supplying him with a positive pressure hood for example.
Is it one of those ornate hipster beards? Gawd I hate them!
Alfasev  
#3 Posted : 26 March 2015 16:42:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

I agree with A Kurdziel enforcement depends on their terms of employment. I used to be involved in making confine space entries and this issue was raised in training. It was a while ago but I do remember the operatives were made aware and had to sign an agreement. It was very rare but one or two operatives were sent home to shave.

If this is part of his job you could argue he has a duty under regulation 7 (cooperate with their employers) and 8 ( misuse or interfere) of the HSW Act.
SHV  
#4 Posted : 26 March 2015 17:13:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SHV

Gareth

If the employee can not be clean shave , what is his excuse ? Did he signed the contract mentioned he should follow company OHS requirements?

SHV
chris42  
#5 Posted : 26 March 2015 17:26:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

But shouldn't you fit the PPE to the person, not alter the person to fit the PPE.

(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2), personal protective equipment shall not be suitable unless—

(b)it takes account of ergonomic requirements and the state of health of the person or persons who may wear it;
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 26 March 2015 18:04:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

If you have a policy it must also apply to the female employees.
Roundtuit  
#7 Posted : 26 March 2015 22:23:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Rather than pursuing the employee's grooming what is the company doing about eliminating / reducing the risk which has obviously been identified?

Can the task be re-designed to segregate employee/item/solvent?

Or being short sighted why not switch the current helmets to a newer design with switchable filter units dependent upon task?

When the employee(s) get(s) older and needs glasses that could also break an RPE seal will you then demand they wear contact lenses (or have company funded laser eye surgery) as part of their contract?
Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 26 March 2015 22:23:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Rather than pursuing the employee's grooming what is the company doing about eliminating / reducing the risk which has obviously been identified?

Can the task be re-designed to segregate employee/item/solvent?

Or being short sighted why not switch the current helmets to a newer design with switchable filter units dependent upon task?

When the employee(s) get(s) older and needs glasses that could also break an RPE seal will you then demand they wear contact lenses (or have company funded laser eye surgery) as part of their contract?
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 27 March 2015 06:56:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

And; - give the problem to HR and/or the production people to manage as that's what they get paid for
ashleywillson  
#10 Posted : 27 March 2015 08:11:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ashleywillson

So long as you have done everything that is reasonably practicable, as far as being an H&S advisor goes your job is done.

Clean shaving policies and people who cannot safely do a job due to their own lifestyle choice become an issue for HR as far as I am concerned!
Lawlee45239  
#11 Posted : 27 March 2015 09:26:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Lawlee45239

gareth-sellers wrote:
good afternoon, I have an employee who is required to do a job using his respiratory protective equipment that he was fit tested for, he has since grown a beard and says he cant complete the task (which he is right to do as we wouldn't want to endanger him)
can we as a company require him to be clean shaven to the standard at the time of fit testing?
the task is required for roughly 6 hours spaced over a month period.
for all other tasks which involves dust we use air flow helmets with correct filters but the task in question involves placing a product in solvent liquid and its the only task we do which involves solvents.
any advice is greatly appreciated

thanks in advance
gaz sellers



Can you get another employee to do the task?
Can the task be done in a different way?
Is this task written in his contract?


Graham Bullough  
#12 Posted : 27 March 2015 11:32:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

For many years I had a dark brown beard but decided to get rid of it in 2006 because, with increasing age, it was becoming multi-coloured with patches of white, grey and black. Various friends complimented me on this decision and said it made me look notably younger. One lady friend added that she'd read or heard somewhere that 90% of women preferred men to be clean-shaven. Though I can't vouch for the accuracy of her information, I'm mentioning it on this thread for possible use as a way to try and persuade the hirsute employee to revert to being clean-shaven again. It might also be of use to other forum users dealing with similar problems.
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 27 March 2015 11:52:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

It might help if you can get female employees to convey that information to the individual?
mssy  
#14 Posted : 27 March 2015 14:18:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

This is not an area I am familiar with - although I have some experience in wearing BA - but it seems incredulous to me that if you have an employee (like the one mentioned by the OP) whose role requires the wearing of such PPE for almost a day a month, that a clean shaven requirement isn't part of his contract of employment.

In any case, why has he grown this beard when he must have known the outcome? I would be minded to request he shaves and then discuss docking 6 hours pay per month or a discipline/regulatory path. Doing nothing is not an option of else other staff may just follow his lead. Its all about being reasonable and cultivating chin topiary when you know it may interfere with PPE is unreasonable

I just wonder if there are other issues at play here, such as a industrial relations issue or other dispute where he is making a point
johnmurray  
#15 Posted : 27 March 2015 16:22:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

With half-decent extraction RPE would not be needed.
Maybe the procedure also means solvent on the hands.
Alter the process.
malcarleton  
#16 Posted : 27 March 2015 22:51:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
malcarleton

A Kurdziel wrote:
It depends on the terms and conditions of the contract of employment. If he has a religious reason for wearing his beard then you can’t ask him to shave it off.
You could make all of this moot by supplying him with a positive pressure hood for example.
Is it one of those ornate hipster beards? Gawd I hate them!


I totally agree, I'm in the Middle East and have many bearded engineers to look after, forced air breathing hoods are fairly cheap technology, if you don't have a compressed breathing air supply belt air filter systems are available
Graham Bullough  
#17 Posted : 28 March 2015 09:44:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Despite my suggestion at #11 I agree with others who have suggested changing the process if feasible so that RPE, with its limitations, is no longer required - or going for a forced air breathing hood or similar so as to obviate the need for a good face seal.

According to internet sources the Royal Navy has always allowed its men to grow beards (must be 'full sets' comprising a beard covering the jawline and combined with a moustache). However, I guess that Naval Regulations include a clause by which men have to be clean shaven if they're likely to need to wear types of RPE which depends on a good face seal. Please can anyone with RN experience advise on this?

Also, during my time with HSE I knew at least 2 bearded construction inspectors whose work sometimes included entering contaminated areas when inspecting asbestos removal projects. For such work I recall that inspectors were generally provided with forced air breathing hoods powered by battery packs on waist belts. This avoided i) reliance on trying to maintain good face seal and ii) discrimination against inspectors with beards.
johnmurray  
#18 Posted : 28 March 2015 09:58:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Passive RPE = cheap
Forced air-fed = not cheap
Whole-head forced-air-fed = not cheap
Most companies are cheap.
mssy  
#19 Posted : 28 March 2015 14:05:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Graham Bullough wrote:


According to internet sources the Royal Navy has always allowed its men to grow beards (must be 'full sets' comprising a beard covering the jawline and combined with a moustache). However, I guess that Naval Regulations include a clause by which men have to be clean shaven if they're likely to need to wear types of RPE which depends on a good face seal. Please can anyone with RN experience advise on this?



The fire service insist on clean shaven faces/chins - My former employer went as far as insisting on the same for those of us in a fire safety dept where our job description was 'operational' despite the chances of wearing a BA set was around zero due to lack of refresher training & opportunity

johnmurray  
#20 Posted : 29 March 2015 10:12:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Don't get carried away with this.
There is a world of difference between a job where exposure to toxic fumes/smoke/hot gasses/etc is considered normal, and almost everyday, and a once-in-a-while exposure to solvent fumes (which should be controlled before RPE is considered anyway).
stevedm  
#21 Posted : 31 March 2015 06:03:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

As a beardy myself and being in safety mine has turned almost white with fear...:) ...and having dealt with this issue directly...just watch out for when he gets his sexy new air fed hood...and then shaves his beard off...try rotating him away from the job for a few weeks if you can to see if this is just a fad... :)
johnmurray  
#22 Posted : 31 March 2015 09:03:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Maybe nobody noticed this:

"we use air flow helmets with correct filters"

It's down the bottom of the start post.....so, dust = air-flow hats...
Solvents = passive....
Hmmm.....
Tell you what guy, buy another air flow helmet with the correct filters.
You've already got a load anyway!
Maybe, just maybe, you don't like the guy with the new beard?
Hope he's in a union...
Colossians 1:14  
#23 Posted : 31 March 2015 13:43:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

Graham Bullough wrote:
Despite my suggestion at #11 I agree with others who have suggested changing the process if feasible so that RPE, with its limitations, is no longer required - or going for a forced air breathing hood or similar so as to obviate the need for a good face seal.

According to internet sources the Royal Navy has always allowed its men to grow beards (must be 'full sets' comprising a beard covering the jawline and combined with a moustache). However, I guess that Naval Regulations include a clause by which men have to be clean shaven if they're likely to need to wear types of RPE which depends on a good face seal. Please can anyone with RN experience advise on this?

Also, during my time with HSE I knew at least 2 bearded construction inspectors whose work sometimes included entering contaminated areas when inspecting asbestos removal projects. For such work I recall that inspectors were generally provided with forced air breathing hoods powered by battery packs on waist belts. This avoided i) reliance on trying to maintain good face seal and ii) discrimination against inspectors with beards.


I was in the RN and was No1 in a 4 man fire fighting team (water wall) on an aircraft carrier. I don't recall any 'clean shaven' policy for RPE and I and other mess mates requested beards from time to time. Usually on 6 month deployments and as part of a 'rubbish beard growing contest'.

Does donning a beard render a face fit test null and void? I have carried out tests with people sporting beards and have got good results, my biggest failures are for face shapes i.e. big hooters!
matelot1965  
#24 Posted : 31 March 2015 17:35:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
matelot1965

Hi colossians,

As you stated in your post the use of forced air breathing apparatus with positive air pressure possibly negates the issue of beards. However when I was an NBCDI ( Nuclear Biological and chemical warfare instructor) it was essential that guys where clean shaven to ensure a good seal on their passive S6/S10 respirator. A little old respirator testing using CS pellets would prove that point unless you enjoyed getting stinging red eyes accompanied with coughing and spluttering. If you ever deployed on Gulf war 1 when it was banded arouned that sadders had some dodgy chemicals that he might throw across our bow I think you will find it was not very difficult to ensure that guys where clean shaven. I would also assume in that situation any guys who refused to be clean shaven would probably have found themselves on the wrong side of the naval discipline act

toe  
#25 Posted : 31 March 2015 21:06:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Oh yes I remember it well CS gas is not good for the eyes.

Gareth,
I guess you can have a clean shaven policy if you like, its your organisation and you can set your own standards. For example, we have to wear a tie and be smartly dressed, we are not allowed to use electronic cigarettes indoors, were not allowed to make phone calls in our company cars (hands free or not), we can be drug tested at any time, these are our company standards, so.... as long as you do not discriminate have a clean shaven policy if you like.

In general, fire fighters and the army (with the exception of an assault pioneer) have clean shaven policies.

Interesting point - in my last company you were not allowed to grow a beard but you were allowed to have one.
johnmurray  
#26 Posted : 31 March 2015 22:05:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

It isn't policy to be clean shaven, they just think he should be because he has been fit-tested in the past for a close-fit passive rpe. Even though others in the same company have air fed.
It isn't company policy, and inevitably was not part of t&c of employment.
And you wonder why the papers take the pee out of h&s?
toe  
#27 Posted : 31 March 2015 22:25:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I don't see the papers taking the pee out of the Fire and Rescue Service or the Military because they don't allow their employees to shave.
johnmurray  
#28 Posted : 01 April 2015 09:56:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

allow me to point-out that the poster is not in the military, or fireservice, and neither is the employee.
For a few hours a month he is required to do something near solvents. The OP is concerned that the company has splashed-out a few quid on a mask that will now not be a good fit.
He's miffed because the employee has done something that he considers he should not have done.
Yet others are provided with air-fed RPE. Probably the sinning/offending employee has not been provided with one because of the intermittent work.
Not fire service.
Not military.
They should provide him with a cloth cap, with doffing instructions.
descarte8  
#29 Posted : 02 April 2015 09:38:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
descarte8

PAPR battery powered hood, with solvent filter:
http://www.srsafety.com/usa/upl/files/75729.pdf

I believe A2 filters available BP+65°C
But currently not AX? Possibly due to increased size.
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