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james fleming  
#1 Posted : 03 April 2015 09:38:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
james fleming

Reading through the new CDM Regs and the specific definitions, without the additional ACOP to suggest it is not covered, it looks like maintenance work will require a CPP.

Would this be correct?
peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 03 April 2015 12:52:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Maintenance of a structure - yes.

Repainting a skirting board is "construction work".
kinning  
#3 Posted : 07 April 2015 15:40:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kinning

?really
jay  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2015 15:57:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The definition of "Construction Work" has NOT changed from CDM 2007 to CDM 2015.

What has changed is that the threshold for appointing the PC & PD (ex CDM-C) and formal CPP etc. which is now "..........more than one contractor". Previously, it was only for Notifiable Projects. In practice, any construction work with 2 or more contractors will require formal appointments of PC & PD (ex CDM-C) and formal CPP.

It seems that most of the big Facilities Management Contractors have not woken up to this as all of them deal with FM "maintanace" contracts and for routine maintainanace, they are likely to be the the PC . They can easily make more money by offering PD services



Alfasev  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2015 16:00:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

As set out in Part 1, maintenance work is classed as constriction work and includes repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance. So yes a CPP is required.
peter gotch  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2015 17:29:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Kinning

It might be daft, but.....
Ali Sooltan  
#7 Posted : 08 April 2015 10:10:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ali Sooltan

Yes a CPP is required whether there is a single contractor or PC. however, it should be proportionate to the scale of the project. The smaller / less complex the project, the simpler the CPP.
james fleming  
#8 Posted : 08 April 2015 13:52:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
james fleming

Thank you very much for those tips... helped me a lot.

Kinning, I dont really know you but your remark is one reason why I dont come round here much.

Not inspiring.

kinning wrote:
?really

walker  
#9 Posted : 08 April 2015 13:57:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

james fleming wrote:
Thank you very much for those tips... helped me a lot.

Kinning, I dont really know you but your remark is one reason why I dont come round here much.

Not inspiring.

kinning wrote:
?really



James,
It seemed a reasonable comment to me, maybe you are looking for problems were none exist??
chris42  
#10 Posted : 08 April 2015 14:33:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Hi James

I think Kinning's remark was for Peters post over skirting boards, not yours.

Or at least that is how I read it.

Not having a go at you or anyone, its easy to read things out of context on here sometimes.

I've only just started to read through the CDM changes - they are fun aren't they !

Chris
walker  
#11 Posted : 08 April 2015 15:27:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Chris42 wrote:
Hi James

I think Kinning's remark was for Peters post over skirting boards, not yours.
Or at least that is how I read it.

Chris


Me too.
peter gotch  
#12 Posted : 09 April 2015 13:48:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

.....and I did not take any umbrage at Kinning's remark!
jay  
#13 Posted : 09 April 2015 14:51:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

In the IOSH hosted webinar, the presentation by HSE made it clear that the HSE had no choice but to fully transpose the T & MCS Directive. There is no exception for the CPP in the directive therefore HSE could not restrict CPP to notifiable projects as it did pre CDM 2015.

Do we all really expect a small builder involved in domestic projects, say a conservatory extension to have a 100% CPP when pre CDM2015, it was unlikely that there would have been any formal plan or H & S Method Statement? Surely, the contents in CIS 80 is better than nothing.

Also, the HSE has been campaigning/targeting the small (aka busy) builder with a whole range of topics etc. listed below--all are under the heading "What you need to know as a busy builder"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/co...ction/areyou/builder.htm

Preventing injury during plasterboard handling:
Preventing injury from handling heavy blocks:
Construction dust:
Old lead paint:
Hard hats –
Running a small construction site leaflet
Manual handling leaflet
Roof work leaflet
Welfare leaflet
Excavation:
Avoiding concealed services and overhead power lines:
Basement construction:
Solar panel Installation -
Fragile roofs:
Keeping your site tidy:
Protecting the public:
Fragile roofs:



There is also "The Absolutely Essential Toolkit for the smaller construction contractor"


http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/conindex.htm


I prefer to view it as a glass half full rather than half empty.

jay  
#14 Posted : 09 April 2015 15:24:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

My apologies, the above should have been in a different thread, "Construction Phase Plan Template (for Busy Builder)"!
jarsmith83  
#15 Posted : 09 April 2015 20:27:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

I work for one of the largest FMs in UK and we are well ahead of the mark - we have a strategic team who has a member of coniac included CDM 2015 included.

As referred to in this thread, the CPP needs to be proportionate to the risk involved in maintenance projects. Risk registers will be suffice, which are widely used in the maintenance industry, as long as they make reference to the key points detailed in ACOPS and adopt CPP as name.

For small building firms I cannot see this being difficult to achieve, however, I can see a rise on the horizon of rip off health and safety consultants claiming they can wrote the CPP, like it will be as complicated as brain surgery to achieve.

Having worked in construction for a number of years, I only see this as very basic health and safety that should already be place - from what I have heard through the grape vine, the HSE are looking small companies initially, and the larger maintenance providers later in the year (phasing in up to October).
firesafety101  
#16 Posted : 09 April 2015 22:51:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Just watching the news about the Hatton Garden deposit boxes raid.

Apparently the robbers drilled theough the concrete walls of the vault.

I suppose it would be too much to expect them to have a CPP ?
firesafety101  
#17 Posted : 09 April 2015 22:58:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Jay wrote:
In the IOSH hosted webinar, the presentation by HSE made it clear that the HSE had no choice but to fully transpose the T & MCS Directive. There is no exception for the CPP in the directive therefore HSE could not restrict CPP to notifiable projects as it did pre CDM 2015.

Do we all really expect a small builder involved in domestic projects, say a conservatory extension to have a 100% CPP when pre CDM2015, it was unlikely that there would have been any formal plan or H & S Method Statement? Surely, the contents in CIS 80 is better than nothing.

Also, the HSE has been campaigning/targeting the small (aka busy) builder with a whole range of topics etc. listed below--all are under the heading "What you need to know as a busy builder"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/co...ction/areyou/builder.htm

Preventing injury during plasterboard handling:
Preventing injury from handling heavy blocks:
Construction dust:
Old lead paint:
Hard hats –
Running a small construction site leaflet
Manual handling leaflet
Roof work leaflet
Welfare leaflet
Excavation:
Avoiding concealed services and overhead power lines:
Basement construction:
Solar panel Installation -
Fragile roofs:
Keeping your site tidy:
Protecting the public:
Fragile roofs:



There is also "The Absolutely Essential Toolkit for the smaller construction contractor"


http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/conindex.htm


I prefer to view it as a glass half full rather than half empty.



Ahah Oh ye of little faith.

A shopfitting contractor I work for requested me to do a CPC for a new Conservatory/Orangery they were about to start for his father in law.

He wanted the usual package including risk assessments and method statements, Daily safety check sheets and fire risk assessment recording form.

He has taken the role of PC and all responsibilities from the "Domestic" Client.




RayRapp  
#18 Posted : 10 April 2015 08:14:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

FireSafety101 wrote:
Just watching the news about the Hatton Garden deposit boxes raid.

Apparently the robbers drilled theough the concrete walls of the vault.

I suppose it would be too much to expect them to have a CPP ?


Ahh...but was this a domestic or commerical project?
chris42  
#19 Posted : 10 April 2015 08:20:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

quote=RayRapp]
FireSafety101 wrote:
Just watching the news about the Hatton Garden deposit boxes raid.

Apparently the robbers drilled theough the concrete walls of the vault.

I suppose it would be too much to expect them to have a CPP ?


Ahh...but was this a domestic or commerical project?


They did the work in-hose (for themselves), so it is not covered by the regs ! Same as you are allowed to paint your own skirting boards.
firesafety101  
#20 Posted : 10 April 2015 10:39:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I disagree. They were only "in house" after they had scaled down the lift shaft after disabling the lift. (Another method statement required).

They were not employed by the occupier who was not a domestic client.

Further it appears they were very well paid for their night's work.

I just wonder if HSE will jump on the bandwagon when they are caught and subsequently appear in court and prosecute for any CDM 2015 offences?

(It is Friday now isn't it?)
walker  
#21 Posted : 10 April 2015 11:47:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

RayRapp wrote:
FireSafety101 wrote:
Just watching the news about the Hatton Garden deposit boxes raid.

Apparently the robbers drilled theough the concrete walls of the vault.

I suppose it would be too much to expect them to have a CPP ?


Ahh...but was this a domestic or commerical project?


I think they purposely did it quickly with few men to avoid an F10
Alfasev  
#22 Posted : 10 April 2015 16:01:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

Like it Chris42, I was once informed the firm I was working for was owned by the mod. Do not know if it was true but doggy looking people did turn up now and again in hugely expensive cars! They unlike the stereotype put a lot of effort to ensuring they were fully compliant with everything. I was told this was to ensure the company stayed under the radar.
I did ponder if they were working that weekend. Anybody needs an engagement ring!
FireSafety, stranger things have happened, didn’t they get Al Capone on tax charges.
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