Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
RiskyBusiness  
#1 Posted : 21 April 2015 11:35:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RiskyBusiness

A question for the electrical experts; in the UK, when wiring 3-pin plugs, attention is given to ensuring that the 'live' is connected to 'live', 'neutral' is connected to 'neutral' and 'earth' is connected to 'earth'.
In Europe, however, the round 2-pin plugs (with separate 'earth' on the outside of the plug) can be connected to a socket in either one of two possible orientations, which, presumably transposes the 'live' and 'neutral' on one of the possible two orientations of the plug.
Why is 'live'-to-'neutral' a problem in the UK whilst it isn't in Europe? Does it present a hazard to personnel or is it a system issue?

Many thanks.
Ross
DaveDowan  
#2 Posted : 21 April 2015 13:14:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaveDowan

Hi Risky
I am not an expert , but this is my understanding

European electrical equipment has double pole protection and switching. There is therefore not an issue with reversing polarity on a European appliance. British appliances tend to have single pole protection and switching, therefore reversing polarity can cause a hazard.
Dave
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 21 April 2015 13:24:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Like the previous poster I am no expert but in laymen's terms in many European systems there is no true neutral. Instead the both of the pins can be live (split-single phase I think is the word) and so the polarisation of the pins does not matter.
jfw  
#4 Posted : 21 April 2015 14:03:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jfw


The UK 3 pin, 13 amp plug is designed to be used on ring mains, therefore its fitted with a fuse to protect against overload.

The fuse must always be on the live supply, so that in the event of a fault, the fuse will fail and the appliance is isolated making it safe, as the supply is stopped at the point of it entering the plug.

If the fuse was on the neutral side of the plug, in the event of a fault and the fuse failing, the supply would be stopped at the exit point of the plug, leaving the appliance live and potentially unsafe.
walker  
#5 Posted : 21 April 2015 14:22:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Ross

Its a good question and I commend you for asking rather than assuming, but please be very careful about the advice offered so far.
A Kurdziel  
#6 Posted : 21 April 2015 15:18:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This is what Wikipedia says about polarisation of plugs i.e. does it matter which is neutral and which is live:

“Where the building wiring system defines a "neutral" conductor that is close to earth potential, it is an advantage for appliance designers to preserve that distinction. For example, appliances may ensure single-pole switches interrupt the line side of the circuit, or ensure that screw-base lampholder shells are connected to the neutral side of the supply, minimizing the chance of contact with live parts. This requires a plug that can only be connected in one way to the socket, so that the energised and neutral conductors are not interchanged. In most designs, such "polarized" plugs cannot be mated with non-polarized sockets. Wiring systems where both circuit conductors have a significant potential with respect to earth do not benefit from polarized plugs.”
paul.skyrme  
#7 Posted : 21 April 2015 19:03:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Looking at single phase 230V low voltage supplies & circuits only for a moment.
In the UK, we have the ring final circuit, this is conventionally protected at 32A (old circuits will have been 30A).
We utilise single pole switching & more often than not, single pole over current protection.
Switching & over current protection must be in the line (phase)conductor, I can’t say live, as will become clear, Neutral, whilst earthed at the supply is actually a live conductor.
I will admit at this point, that I am not familiar with electrical installation practices in mainland Europe other than to say that what I have seen is often visibly poorer than the UK in many places, and I have seen many double pole over current protective devices on circuits.
Plus, the ring final circuit is a UK only deviation to EN60364.
A “standard” / “common” 13A single or twin socket outlet is normally only rated at 20A.
The “science” of the ring circuit and our old friend diversity helps to limit the current at a circuit node to <=20A.
Now in Europe, I gather sockets tend to be on 16 or 20A radial circuits, and the sockets are capable of taking this current, and are un-switched.
Combined with a double pole protective device, sockets that can handle the current, and no switching, then it is no problem.
In the event of a short circuit fault the protective device operates and disconnects both live conductors.
In the event of an overcurrent fault, the protective device opens and disconnects both live conductors.
Now you could ask how are there two live conductors when I have said the Neutral is earthed.
Well, the supply current travels down the phase conductor, through the protective devices, etc. etc. through the load (appliance etc.) and back down the neutral conductor to the source of supply.
If, you disconnect the neutral conductor from the source of supply and operate the load device connected downstream, (whatever that may be, electric heater, light, hairdryer, tumble dryer, etc.), then the disconnected load side neutral conductor will rise to supply voltage, and will be “looking” to “sink” the load current, so anyone linking this open circuit conductor and earth, will “see” full circuit voltage and as much current as the circuit protective device will allow to flow, and even for a 6A circuit breaker, the smallest in common use for domestic & commercial circuits in the UK, and not for sockets, but lighting, will allow 30A to flow for up to 5 seconds, and this is fully compliant with the safety requirements.
OK, with me so far?
Now the chances of the N being deliberately disconnected on a “live” load are minimal.
However, if you are not polarity conscious then you would inadvertently allow this scenario to arise when switching the N conductor.
So, when switching the N conductor, all live conductors are at supply voltage on the load side of the N switching point.
Hence dangerous.
Now, back to the polarity consciousness.
Now, if, the polarity is reversed in a “13A” plug, and the N is fused, in the event of an overcurrent situation, the fuse will fail, however, the phase, line, “dangerous” supply, will NOT be disconnected, so, if you have a person hanging off that relying on the fuse opening to keep them alive, then it won’t because whilst the current flowing from phase to N is interrupted, the phase voltage will still be available at the point of fault, now this voltage will still be available to drive a lethal current through the person.
Make sense?
Got to stop now, in the hotel bar & my dinner is here! ;)
HTH, please as for elaboration if you wish, I have tried to KISS this, but, not everyone will understand, and yes, I have used some “colloquial” and “common” terms, in an attempt to make it understandable.
I don’t think, I have addressed all the points in the OP, & subsequent posts, so please highlight those lacking and I’ll come back to them.
Food time!
RiskyBusiness  
#8 Posted : 23 April 2015 15:37:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
RiskyBusiness

Many thanks!

Ross
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.