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CarolC  
#1 Posted : 19 May 2015 15:32:32(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
CarolC

We are working in a framework agreement on a series of store refit/refurb projects for a retail chain. The client has nominated an individual within their organisation to be named as the PD. This individual is in the client’s design office and they influence the overall format and layout of the stores, to be delivered across all the stores in the refit programme as a whole but do not get involved in the planning of the individual projects. My question is whether the client is wrong to name the person at this high level as PD. Although he influences and prescribes design intent for the overall refit programme, he does not attend each site and is therefore not in a position to influence or co-ordinate H&S on each individual project. I would suggest that surely that falls to the refit project managers, who decide the scope of each refit (subject to cost validation), place the orders and give instructions to the project stakeholders, specialist contractors etc. I would suggest that the client may possibly have received faulty guidance and that they should name PDs on a project by project basis, rather than the one high level individual who does not get involved in the detail of how the project will actually be delivered on site. Before I put my foot in it with the client, what do other forum members think?
PH2  
#2 Posted : 19 May 2015 15:43:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

Carol, I agree that the Client may have received the wrong advice. (A client can act as a Principal Designer, but their insurers may not be happy to provide PI cover if they do). The answer to your question is given in Regulation 11 of the new CDM Regulations. Rather than quote the Regulations, I recommend that you read them (and this Reg in particular). PH2
ashleywillson  
#3 Posted : 19 May 2015 15:53:56(UTC)
Rank:: Super forum user
ashleywillson

Carol Its a good question... I am looking at this from 2 sides. Firstly, in the spirit that CDM was intended you are right. Having someone 'hands off' is never good to ensure that H&S of all parties and having someone on the ground would be much better. From a "have we met the requirements" side of things, I think the duties as laid out in CDM have actually been met. If I was in your shoes, I would be having the discussion with the client of Yes you are ticking the box, but if the proverbial hits the fan you want to make sure you are covered. The PD could be the company rather than the individual and could therefore be represented by the person in the high position for high level decisions with a hands on approach from the guys on site. This might mean a bit of re-wording in the CPP / H&S file and a re sub on the F10 but it will protect the client and the currently nominated PD while providing better H&S for the site. I hope my thoughts help...
CarolC  
#4 Posted : 19 May 2015 15:57:11(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
CarolC

Thanks for agreeing with me PH2 - I have read the regs which is why I think the nomination of this person as PD is wrong. It's just that the regs are easy to apply to a one-off project but difficult on a framework of multiple projects. It's a sensitive thing to try to tell a client that the consultant they have seconded is giving them bad advice (if in fact that is where this originates) so I am hoping the forum can give me reassurance or ammo
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 19 May 2015 16:00:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I might agree in principle but, the PD whoever they may be can delegate the tasks identified in Reg 11 and as long as those provisions are carried out I cannot see a problem from a legal perspective. I suggest it is a similar concept to the now extinct CDM-C, where he could be an individual or represented by an organisation. Ideally it would be an individual who would have their finger on the pulse...not always the case though.
CarolC  
#6 Posted : 19 May 2015 16:02:19(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
CarolC

Thanks Ashley, I and my colleagues are inclined to agree that the Company should be the PD with named individuals representing it on a project by project basis. I'm thinking it's the word "Design" in the role title that confuses things and makes clients think of "look and feel" design rather that "how are we going to build this?"
achrn  
#7 Posted : 19 May 2015 16:04:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I don't think the regs require that the PD attend site. The PD has no explicit role on site, since stuff on site is the construction phase, not the pre-construction phase. I'm also slightly perplexed, because it's a frequent grouse that H&S is not taken seriously enough at a high enough level, and here we have a client who is taking it seriously enough that they've decided to appoint someone within their own organisation, and then appointed someone at a high level, and now there's complaint that they haven't appointed someone who is day-in-day-out hands-on enough. I would not expect any PD to be routinely on site do anything there. Things on site are under control of the PC. The only thing I think they've necessarily done wrong is appoint an individual, and it's not really credible to me that an individual can deliver the PD role on all but a trivial site.
CarolC  
#8 Posted : 19 May 2015 16:36:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
CarolC

AHCRN I think you are misunderstanding my reference to his not attending site - I meant in the context of having input into Pre-construction how the project is planned, not the day to day on site control which is of course in the hands of the PC. The problem is the client at high level who has not visited site will, for example, say "deliver the shop to look like this,with the plant on the roof and the entrance door moved over to the left" without considering how the plant will be placed on the roof, how it will safely be maintaned once it is up there and whether moving the entrance door will have DDA implications
Ron Hunter  
#9 Posted : 19 May 2015 17:05:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I do think your Client needs a heads-up. The PD is not nominated, he is appointed in writing. He is them responsible for coordinating all matters of design at the pre-construction phase, continuing forward to the construction phase where that design is altered and also to catch outstanding matters for the health and safety file. A Client who makes appointment and then by-passes his own arrangements in the way you describe is asking for trouble. CDM2015 still requires the PC to remind the Client of his CDM duties...................
achrn  
#10 Posted : 20 May 2015 08:11:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

CarolC wrote:
AHCRN I think you are misunderstanding my reference to his not attending site - I meant in the context of having input into Pre-construction how the project is planned, not the day to day on site control which is of course in the hands of the PC. The problem is the client at high level who has not visited site will, for example, say "deliver the shop to look like this,with the plant on the roof and the entrance door moved over to the left" without considering how the plant will be placed on the roof, how it will safely be maintaned once it is up there and whether moving the entrance door will have DDA implications
So what? If the client says that, they needs the issues identifying. It needs the issues identifying to the client if they say that when they are just the client, and it needs the issues identifying when they are client and PD. No difference. The PD doesn't do all the design, they coordinate the design phase. Being PD doesn't make the instruction to move the door to the left and more binding. It doesn't absolve anyone else of any duties. The designer of the door location has just as many duties to just the same level of liability whether the client or the PD has told them to do it, and that's not affected by whether the two are in fact the same organisation (or person). As I said, the only problem seems to be the appointment of a person who does not have sufficient skills knowledge and experience. They should have appointed the organisation (assuming it corporately has the skills knowledge and experience, but since you're advocating that someone else in the organisation would be better, that suggests you think they do).
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