Rank: Forum user
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I was recently interviewed by an HSE Inspector who took a statement from me. The statement was duly signed by yours truly after reading it through.
I have asked for a copy of the statement only to be told by the Inspector that they will not release it until after the case is closed.
I always thought that you were entitled to receive a copy of your own ststement.
Anyone had this same problem? Anyone know what the rules are?
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Rank: Super forum user
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You will definitely have access to your statement if any court proceedings happen because they have to disclose their evidence. From memory discloser is supposed to happen early but can happen on the steps of the court. I would let them know this and see what happens.
If you have concerns make another written record what happened while it is fresh in your memory and seek legal advice.
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Rank: Forum user
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You do have a right to a copy. However, the Inspector has to ensure that the investigation isn't compromised. If there are other witnesses who have yet to give statements then the Inspector is under no obligation to give you a copy.
As previously mentioned, you will get to see a copy but maybe not straight away. As you are a witness, disclosure does not apply.
Why do you think you need a copy now?
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Rank: Super forum user
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What sort of statement was it? The HSE should have made it clear before they took the statement what it was intended for.
There are 3 types of statement they can get you to make:
1. A voluntary statement (section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967) which is intended to give the authorities background information. It used to be called “helping the police with their enquires”. You won’t necessarily get a copy of this back.
2. A non-voluntary statement made under HSWA which CANNOT be used against you in court of law.
3. A statement under PACE( ie under caution) which they should have recorded (ideally on either audio tape or video) and they should have given you a copy then and there. This can be used against you in a court
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Rank: Super forum user
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Having given a statement to HSE under caution in the past I also was not allowed a copy of the statement - it appears that this is the norm and they can do this initially.
Subsequently I have come across a clever way of getting a copy.
At the end of the interview you will be asked to check and sign each page and the end of the statement, when you are reading your statement you ask if you can go away with the statement to double check something (for example to ask a colleague a question to confirm a time or detail) then go away and make a copy without their notice.
This is technically allowed, it appears if you have it in your possession they cannot stop you from copying it.
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Rank: Forum user
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You are not entitled to a copy of a section 9 statement. You can ask for a copy of a section 20 statement but only when the Inspector deems it suitable. It is HSE's policy to comply with requests but there are heavy caveats. If there is a chance that the statement could be released to others and interfere with the course of justice then you will not be given one and I caution anyone taking a copy surreptitiously as it could be consisdered as perverting the course of justice.
It sounds like yours (nor the original poster) wasn't an interview under caution but a plain old section 9 witness statement. The Inspector does not have to tell you which statement he is taking. He only has to ask you if you are willing to make a voluntary statement. If you refuse, for example due to pressure from other parties, then he will explain his powers under Section 20 and use a different statement form. Only then does the need arise for an explanation into the different types of statement. If you are interviewed under caution you will likely have been given plenty of written warning in advance and asked if you want to be represented or have legal advice beforehand.
Although interviews under caution can be written down as a contemporaneous note, this is rarely done. If it was indeed an interview under caution then the Inspector would have allowed you to copy the contemporaneous note unless there were others who were to be interviewed in the same manner.
Most likely, if the Inspector needed to keep your statement from others he wouldn't have left it out of his sight. Sometimes there is no issue with giving people copies of their statements. Sometimes they may refuse if they think that you have been put under pressure by your employer to reveal the contents of your statement.
However, the question remains... Why do you want a copy of your statement straight away?
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Rank: Forum user
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This has been a concern of mine for some time now. I was on a jury (I’m allowed to tell you that) and we were given a statement form a defendant (that’s not privileged information either). We were able to take this into the jury room.
So far so good
But we were not allowed to see the written statement of a witness, or to take a copy of that into the jury room (again I’m not breaking any of the rules governing a jury by saying this).
So my question is why give a voluntary statement if it seems it can be used against you and you’ll be cross examined on it without having the benefit of having been able to have a copy (except at the door of the court). Bearing in mind it will no doubt be years between giving the statement and the court appearance, and that the role of the Barrister is to catch you out (yes it is, in order to cast doubt on your evidence) on something you have to remember from a long time ago.
So voluntary statements can be given to a jury while it seems (my severely limited experience) that statements under caution are not. And from what I’ve read on this thread you can have a copy of a statement under caution, while you cannot have a copy of a voluntary statement (until the last minute).
I feel I’d rather be interviewed under caution with the rights that gives me. The benefit of having given a statement voluntarily seems to be relatively insignificant.
However I’d rather not be interviewed by the authorities at all ever and I intend to finish my career without the necessity of having to go through this hell. That said I’d counsel never to give any statement without legal representation, even if that means on overnight in a cell (which is sometimes can while they find the on call solicitor).
(Head down awaiting the forum frenzy )
Graham
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is a great deal of confusion as to if a section 9(voluntary statement) can be used against you in court). Lawyers I have spoken with say it should not be and the guidance from the CPS to prosecutors says it should not be either but I keep hearing stories of such statements being used in evidence against the party that made them.
See https://www.cps.gov.uk/l...dence_under_the_cja/#a03
This seems to make a distinction between a section 9 statement which is just evidence and a section 10 statement which is an admission.
I have been interviewed(by the HSE) under Section 9 and it is not fun
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Rank: Super forum user
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If something is going to be 'used against you in Court' then by default you are a defendant? Yes? Taking witness statements from people that are suspected of committing an offence is a sure fire way of making sure that evidence fails to make it in front of a Court at all. PACE exists for THIS EXACT REASON.
If somehow a s.9 statement you give makes it into Court to be used against you personally then there will have been an awful lot of legal wrangling and exceptions to make it so. Your voluntary evidence could be used against your employer though. Is this the confusion?
Additionally, if the HSE or an LA has taken a s.9 statement from you and intend to use you as a prosecution witness, then, again, a sure fire way of making sure that you perform as poorly as possible is providing you with your statement at the absolute last minute.
The comments about keeping statements from witnesses back early in an investigation makes total sense as you would not want witnesses to collude or companies/potential defendants to get sight of what has been said and change their story...but to absolutely hold it back till the last second for something that happened potentially years before is somewhat daft. To hold it back until the investigation is complete is sensible though...and then ultimately you may never be called as no enforcement action may potentially result anyway.
Being interviewed as a witness is never likely to be fun but should also not be daunting...poor practice from the interviewer if that is the case. You are a witness of fact and nothing more. If at some point during a voluntary statement it becomes clear that you or the company you represent may have committed an offence, then the interview has to stop and a caution be given. Cases are lost on such grounds.
I can't help but wonder whether we're discussing exceptions here rather than the norms.
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Rank: Forum user
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Yes - there does seem to be some confusion.
An interview under caution or PACE interview is offered (HSE "invites" to a PACE interview and chooses not to exercise the powers to arrest which were given to all enforcing authorities with a change in the law a while back) where there is a a suspicion of an offence being committed. You cannot choose to be cautioned as a witness. HSE routinely record interviews under caution on CD nowadays so a copy is always available straight away. Before CD's were used, you had to write to request a copy if you wanted one before disclosure (now called initial details).
The term "used against you" in a section 9 statement is misleading. The statement contains a signed declaration of the truth. HSE's website confrims:
"the statement contains a declaration by the maker that it is true to the best of his/her knowledge and belief and that it was made knowing that, if it were tendered in evidence, the maker would be liable to prosecution if s/he wilfully stated in it anything which he knew to be false or did not believe to be true"
So, you could be committing perjury if you lie. If there was anything in any witness statement, S9 or S20 that incriminated you, it still cannot be used against you. You then become a suspect and have to be offered an interview under caution. If this happens while being interviewed by HSE, the Inspector will stop the process - it the statement has no evidential value as you have not been cautioned. There is an option to caution then and there and take a written contemporaneous record but HSE's guidance is that legal advice is sought by the suspect first.
A section 20 statement contains a declaration that it cannot be used against the person or spouse. Again, this refers to the subject of perjury and not to the question of whether you are a suspect of an H&S offence. If you say anything that incriminates you during a witness interview the Inspector would not carry on for the reasons I've explained above. HSE generally only use this where an employee may face discrimiantion for revealing evidence voluntarily. The idea is that if they are compelled then the company should not victimise them for it.
It may seem sensible to always ask for a section 20 statement but there are benefits to having a section 9 statement over a section 20. If you give a section 9 statement you may not have to attend court if your statement is not in dispute but section 20 statements are not admissible and are treated as hearsay evidence. The court will also be informed that you were not willing to give a voluntary statement and that may affect the way you are treated (from my experience although others may disagree).
Some companies or defence solicitors may instruct employees to refuse a voluntary statement. However, this may benefit the company marginally but certainly does not benefit the individual. Unless you know you are going to lie...... and you may eventually have to lie on oath in any event so can still perjure yourself!
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Rank: Forum user
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Thank you all for your comments so far.
I should add that I was not a witness to the incident. I conducted the internal investigation before the HSE became involved.
I was subsequently "invited" by the Inspector to attend an interview.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Super forum user
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Dean Elliot wrote:
It sounds like yours (nor the original poster) wasn't an interview under caution but a plain old section 9 witness statement.
I'm not sure about that - the HSE inspector started quoting PACE to me at the start of my interview (and the caution about evidence) at the end of the caution she asked if I understood it - in which I corrected her that PACE is not applicable in Scotland as it is English and Wales Legislation.
Note: I know that the caution still applies though.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Its certainly fair to say that if you don't know whether you were giving a statement as a witness OR being interviewed as a suspect (or representing your employer who was a suspect) ... then the Inspector was not doing a great job.
It would be exceptional indeed for an interview under caution to be written down as you have described. Its simply way too much work for a start...and subject to inaccuracy. Still. Not impossible or illegal to do so - what do I know? ;)
However if you were producing a signed page by page statement that still sounds like a witness statement to me by all the norms of investigation. God knows why they were mentioning the caution...?
Sounds to me like the original poster was producing a witness statement too - probably concerning job role, management arrangements...what you found during your internal investigation etc. and/or producing a copy of your investigation report as an exhibit.
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Rank: Forum user
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Xavier123.
Your last paragraph sums up my current situation.
I am not a happy bunny at present and cannot see any justifiable reasoning behind not providing a copy. After all, the statement contains the information I gleaned from my investigation apart from my qualifications and experience (37 years). The statement is already common knowledge with senior management.
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Rank: Forum user
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Is there a justifiable reason why you need to see a copy before a decision is made on whether there is going to be a prosecution?
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