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jon joe  
#1 Posted : 16 June 2015 13:22:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

Was speaking to a Health and Safety Consultant today. He showed me the H&S Manual he would create for any required Company. Example, Lone Working, had a page about the Policy on Lone Working, then another Page or 2, which was a flow graph on the Procedure for Lone Working....Now, looking at current Companies H&S Manual, some of the Procdures run into countless pages (43 for Emergency Evacuation)....Obviously you ensure all relevant information is detailed, but do Companies some times 'over kill' on content???....The Consultant told me, his experience, make it straight forward, specific and right to the point
fiesta  
#2 Posted : 16 June 2015 13:49:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fiesta

We use a well know national HS & HR Consultancy and our H&S policy is 178 pages long.
Its basically a regurgitation of Employer's / Employee's & Contractor's responsibilities taken from a large number of Regulations, some more relevant than others. Apart from the H&S Statement at the front, there isn't an actual "Policy" in it.

I've had discussion with those above but they are unwilling to change it.

Personally I think a huge generic H&S policy by a national provider looks less convincing / impressive to potential clients that a smaller bespoke one that deals with the specific of your company.

I have written a smaller 30 pager but its been pooh poohed.
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 16 June 2015 14:07:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We got rid of the ‘manual’ and put everything up on the intranet via a document control programme (Workbench). All the information was there, it was just divvied up into bite size pieces. I did not expect people to learn the whole thing or anything like that; just to look at the bits relevant to their work. Furthermore the actual risk assessment process was down to teams so they had ownership of the documents etc.

For a small to medium business doing something fairly straight forward (and in particular standard with little variation) a 30 pager should be enough. At my last place we did a huge variety of things both on site and off site, so we had pages of stuff covering all of the contingencies.
jon joe  
#4 Posted : 16 June 2015 14:19:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

yeah, I find it very interesting how different companies actually set out their manual / policies / procedures etc

First place I worked at, the H&S Policy was simply the statement.....the manual was an overview of what would be expected, the Procedure was pretty much what to do, who and how....I always felt that was easier to understand etc
PIKEMAN  
#5 Posted : 16 June 2015 14:51:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

In my experience having worked as a Senior Manager and Consultant "simple" works best. However, regulators and Insurers (and their auditors) seem to be easily bought off, if not mesmerised by "quantity" of documentation rather than the "quality". This maybe a reflection of their own lack of experience? I have however come across some of these people however who went straight to the heart of the matter, and required uncomplicated and effective risk controls. They were generally what I would call "mature" auditors who had seen a bit of battle and blood spilt...........
David Bannister  
#6 Posted : 16 June 2015 14:56:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

jon joe wrote:
The Consultant told me, his experience, make it straight forward, specific and right to the point


I have worked with many companies who have had an all-singing all-dancing H&S manual packed with loads of fascinating stuff - mostly totally irrelevant to the risks being created by the work being done. In most (but not all) instances the manuals had been created by well-known HR/H&S/Legal consultancies who seemed to think that the more guff they were able to put in front of their client, the better, in order to justify their 5-year contracts.

I'm quite sure many people on here will know of whom I speak.

A couple had been put together by professionals who should have known better and in one recent case (a current client) internally. The well-meaning scribe had thought that they had better include just about everything "just in case".

JJ, I admire that consultant (was it me?)
jon joe  
#7 Posted : 16 June 2015 15:07:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

David Bannister wrote:
jon joe wrote:
The Consultant told me, his experience, make it straight forward, specific and right to the point


I have worked with many companies who have had an all-singing all-dancing H&S manual packed with loads of fascinating stuff - mostly totally irrelevant to the risks being created by the work being done. In most (but not all) instances the manuals had been created by well-known HR/H&S/Legal consultancies who seemed to think that the more guff they were able to put in front of their client, the better, in order to justify their 5-year contracts.

I'm quite sure many people on here will know of whom I speak.

A couple had been put together by professionals who should have known better and in one recent case (a current client) internally. The well-meaning scribe had thought that they had better include just about everything "just in case".

JJ, I admire that consultant (was it me?)


haha I'm pretty sure it wasn't yourself. Unless you go under a few different names

When I worked as a CDM Coordinator. The best H&S Files, where usually the smallest in quantity, but was simply straight to the point. Seen a few for small projects, that ran into a dozen different files...I always think simplicity is key. Simply because, before I became a Health and Safety Professional, I worked for a Manufacturing Company, who's Senior Manager had a Safety Manual with Procedures wrote by Shakespeare. After a Health & Safety Advisor joined, it was put into clear and readable format. This is what got my interest in the Health and Safety profession
Xavier123  
#8 Posted : 16 June 2015 15:30:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

It's another false economy though isn't it?

It's not the size...it's what you do with it that counts.

When I have a regulator hat on, generic policies stand out a mile away and will likely be used against you rather than in your defence - the chances of you complying with a generic policy can be fairly slim because there is just so much guff in there. It's a shame if there are regulators out there not spotting it but there is technically no crime in having a bought in policy - only if and when it fails to address the key management matters.
andybz  
#9 Posted : 17 June 2015 09:37:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
andybz

Quote from Mark Twain (but has been attributed to others)

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”

My opinion is that most companies cannot be bothered to think about what they really need to write in their policies, procedures etc. so they take the lazy route of trying to cover everything. The problem is that it makes it difficult to find the information that is needed, and people quickly give up trying.

I have a rule of thumb (no science behind it). 20% of the workforce will not read anything you give them. They get by because their colleagues tell them the important bits. The remaining 80% will read the first page. Only 80% of these will read page 2, and only 80% of these will read page 3. On this basis, less than 50% will read page 4. The important message here is to keep documents as short as possible, and make sure the most important information is on page 1.

What is more worrying for me is that having studied company paperwork many times, it is usually the most critical activities that are missed. It seems that companies set out on their plan to document everything, but start with the easy stuff. They never actually get around to documenting the most important stuff. Much better to prioritise so that you at least start with the most important, then you know if you don't get everything done that it is the less important stuff that gets missed.

Finally, it seems to me that documents on the intranet often makes it worse. It quickly becomes a dumping ground for every type of document. The stock answer when asking where information can be found is "its on the intranet." The reality is no one knows for sure if it is or not; and they don't know how to find it.
aud  
#10 Posted : 17 June 2015 12:33:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

Well said Andy.
It is much harder to write short, punchy and relevant material than to just blurb on.

I have seen hundreds of policies in my time, and drafted my share. I include in that broad 'policy' description, anything from vision statement to specific rules. Almost all those I drafted myself ended up differing in structure, composition and presentation.

Why is that? Well - if you think about the audience / reader and the policy purpose and use within the organisation, it is inevitable that each will benefit from a slightly different 'take'. Some are complex, some simple, some all-inclusive, some split up into different separate sections.

One of my particular beefs (and I have a few!) is that safety practitioners are not trained in authorship, communication, or marketing skills, yet we (and yes, me too) all rush out of safety school and start 'writing' policy, guidance and all else in between. First step - get someone elses and plaigiarise! It's called OTJ learning.
We also believe we are instantly gifted with the skill of training and presentation - and so do our employers. There is a strong overlap in these skill areas anyway.

The intranet brings new options, but so often this solution has organisational limitations (care workers and refuse collectors rarely have, or want, such access) so a careful and strategic plan for communication is needed.

The job is not about being a technical expert, it's about persuasion and influence. When is the training going to recognise that?

Steve W1  
#11 Posted : 17 June 2015 14:44:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steve W1

Hi all
I was recently asked to review the health and safety policy of a Company I was doing some work for. So on my desk arrived a 200 page plus glossy folder that the Company in question were extremely proud of.
Now we all at times indulge in a bit of plagiarism but tend to remove the company name that the document was originally compiled for and adapt it to our specific needs. But to leave the original company name on that document and don't alter it it any way at all is unforgivably. Obviously no one read the 200 pages of pure unaltered plagiarism at all, if they had they would have noticed that the majority of the policy's and procedures had just been lifted off the internet.
It even included a fire evacuation procedure for a well known fast food outlet.
So its not quantity that matters is quality and in most cases site specific.
Rant over
A Kurdziel  
#12 Posted : 17 June 2015 16:00:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Steve W1 wrote:
Hi all
I was recently asked to review the health and safety policy of a Company I was doing some work for. So on my desk arrived a 200 page plus glossy folder that the Company in question were extremely proud of.
Now we all at times indulge in a bit of plagiarism but tend to remove the company name that the document was originally compiled for and adapt it to our specific needs. But to leave the original company name on that document and don't alter it it any way at all is unforgivably. Obviously no one read the 200 pages of pure unaltered plagiarism at all, if they had they would have noticed that the majority of the policy's and procedures had just been lifted off the internet.
It even included a fire evacuation procedure for a well known fast food outlet.
So its not quantity that matters is quality and in most cases site specific.
Rant over

Seen that so many times.
Has anyone every produced a comply original policy document with no plagiarism what so ever?
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 17 June 2015 20:54:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Plaigiarism! Would you call copying information from the HSE website Plaigariarism?

I recently went onto their website looking for work at height guidance and their suggested risk assessment is very brief so I copied most of it.

If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me and I wouldn't wish to reinvent their wheel.

WAH risk assessment on one page in the 5 steps format.
bob youel  
#14 Posted : 18 June 2015 08:04:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Some great comments here especially about H&S bods with no technical authorship competence and similar as this is the case in many many situations

Its horses for courses and I have created policies and with supporting documents that were small yet covered very large and complicated situations so it can and should be the norm noting that even the courts like bundles of documents

Plagiarism in one way or another is the norm & I do not see any real problems if people are professional in the way things are used however what people copy is not always right especially via the HSE's own site so be warned

All I can suggest is that professionals cover their own back and keep to their own high and good standards as unfortunately things will not change
RayRapp  
#15 Posted : 18 June 2015 08:29:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Ha, everyone has copied a document or a section at some time or other. Even reviewing another document as an example could be technically plagiarism unless you referenced it. As for the HSE website, I believe there is a caveat that documents can be copied or reproduced without any copyright infringement - which makes perfect sense.

Crack on.
boblewis  
#16 Posted : 18 June 2015 17:35:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Firesafety - don't get me going on about the HSE 5 Steps because if you look at it carefully it ain't that at all - some are double steps:-)

Having said that good flowcharting can save hundreds of words but do be aware that there can be a need for more detailed words at critical points.
MikeKelly  
#17 Posted : 18 June 2015 19:15:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

What about ISO 18001, 14001, 9001, etc for a huge expanse of paper as well?
Regards
Mike
firesafety101  
#18 Posted : 18 June 2015 19:49:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

boblewis wrote:
Firesafety - don't get me going on about the HSE 5 Steps because if you look at it carefully it ain't that at all - some are double steps:-)

Having said that good flowcharting can save hundreds of words but do be aware that there can be a need for more detailed words at critical points.


Bob, I have always used that method for risk assessment and it has always worked for me. Anything more complicated is not welcomed by site operatives who I ask to do their own risk assessments on site.

Whenever I find a hazard needing more comprehensive documentation it usually goes into a method statement with other detailed docs attachd.

Fire risk assessment is different however with information required gained during the process and remaining within the final document.

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