Rank: New forum user 
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We are the PC for a construction project, on a live COMAH site.
A sub-contractor submitted a set of RAMS to carry out specific work in part of the live plant.
The RAMS; in my opinion failed to identify 'WORKING IN AND AROUND LIVE PLANT'
The sub-contractor states it is up to the Client (COMAH site owners) to take the liability as they should have already assessed the risks.
I disagreed and refused to sign off the RAMS.
I maintain irrespective of the client's own RAMS which are used for the client's maintenance department that you as a sub-contractor have a duty to produce a suitable and sufficient risk assessment for your work force while on this site and subsequent method statement, we as principle contractor will give you what you need (MSDS etc) in order for you to carry out that assessment.
What are your feelings on this? Am I in the wrong?
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Rank: Super forum user
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As Principle Contractor you have the responsibility for the CPP and that must secure the health and safety of those working on the construction phase, and so on. I'm not sure of your exact conditions and thus what could be considered to be reasonably practicable and whether in this case a SSoW would be acceptable or else if better precautions would be deemed to be necessary. However, the sub contractors RA should identify the significant hazards and risks and either require they are reduced to an acceptable level, before they start work, or else include in their work the required precautions.
Either way the risks have to be reduced to an acceptable level and you must ensure it is so, now who exactly is going to pay for it and implement the precautions is down to you to decide I would have thought. However, the sub contractor should have identified the hazards and risks and you are correct to expect that.
Regards
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Rank: Super forum user 
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If you go back far enough, CDM was developed to get all parties on a site talking to one another and thinking about how the hazards of their activities effect other people.
If the Client's activities are still taking place where construction is happening, then they should be party to the CDM systems in place, so I think your subby has a point.
The client RAs & MSs should reflect "risks to others" whilst the construction is being done.
There (in this instance) has to be joint control.
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Rank: Super forum user
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How about this approach: the site operator should provide the information about hazards on the site but the role of managing the risk to their own employees lies with the sub-contractor, since only he will know what his people are actually doing on the site.
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Rank: Super forum user
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As a total pedant you have no role on site as a PRINCIPLE contractor only as a PRINCIPAL.
You are saying that the client has live working ongoing within your project area - He must therefore have given you as PC ALL the relevant information and controls for working in that area otherwise why are you controlling work?. You then pass on this client information to your contractors to enable them to incorporate it into their RAMS. It is all about proper management control within the CPP.
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Rank: Super forum user
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You state that the RAMS has failed to identify 'WORKING IN AND AROUND LIVE PLANT'.
If I had to respond to such a feedback from a PC, it is almost like a responding to how long is a piece of string question. All the permit to work systems of the client will be applicable for that--as an example. The siting of temporary buildings such as porta-cabins that is common in significant turnarounds on large COMAH sites is primarily the client and then PC responsibility.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Sorry - excuse my ignorance but what is 'live plant'?
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Rank: Forum user 
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aud wrote:Sorry - excuse my ignorance but what is 'live plant'?
plant
plɑːnt/Submit
noun
1.
a living organism of the kind exemplified by trees, shrubs, herbs, grasses, ferns, and mosses, typically growing in a permanent site, absorbing water and inorganic substances through its roots, and synthesizing nutrients in its leaves by photosynthesis using the green pigment chlorophyll.
synonyms: herb, flower, vegetable, shrub, weed; More
2.
a place where an industrial or manufacturing process takes place.
"a giant car plant"
synonyms: factory, works, foundry, mill, workshop, shop, yard, industrial unit, business unit
"the plant commenced production in June"
In this instance I'm confident that the OP refers to something that aligns with definition 2 above. As for the 'live' aspect......substitute 'active'.
HTH
:-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Jay wrote:You state that the RAMS has failed to identify 'WORKING IN AND AROUND LIVE PLANT'.
If I had to respond to such a feedback from a PC, it is almost like a responding to how long is a piece of string question. All the permit to work systems of the client will be applicable for that--as an example.
Fair point of course. We do not of course know the 'specific work being carried out' but let's assume the OP understands the 'live plant' is relevant for the work being carried out, then the RAMS should identify the significant risk and precautions to be implemented, even if that is to say 'we will be controlled by a permit to work system'.
As we know the risk assessment has to be suitable and sufficient and if it does not identify the significant hazards and risks and precautions required to reduce those risks to an acceptable level then it is not correct.
If the contract was told the plant would be 'dead' then of course it is different. If he was provided information which indicated that then again it's different. However, if he made an assumption and did not properly check then he is in error, especially as he should be competent for the work he is to do and where he is to do it.
He's not been allowed onto site to complete the work, so it would seem, and so the safety systems in place would appear to have worked and thus both the client and PRINCIPAL Contractor appear to have correctly discharged their H&S responsibilities, with regards to this particular job.
As to who is liable for the cost to implement the precautions I tend to think that is about contracts and what information was provided in the first place etc.
Regards
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Rank: Super forum user
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aud wrote:Sorry - excuse my ignorance but what is 'live plant'?
In this case it means process plant that is still operating / producing product e.g. refined products in the case of an oil refinery.
Liquids/gases still flowing through pipelines and probably pressurised etc.
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