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KDP  
#1 Posted : 03 July 2015 13:57:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KDP

These questions are possibly answerable by those of you with legal minds….but I suspect its more likely down to personal interpretation of the Regs. It is (or there appears to be) widespread consensus/understanding that the PC write/draws up the CPP document. However, can a PC request/require/demand another Contractor involved with a project to write/draw up the CPP? Reg 15 states: “During the pre-construction phase, and before setting up a construction site, the principal contractor must draw up a construction phase plan or make arrangements for a construction phase plan to be drawn up” L153, CONIAC lit. & HSE website either dont, or barely, mention the phrase “or make arrangements for”. Where there is an absence of concise terms in any contractual documents; Q. Can a PC use the “make arrangements for” as a means of passing their duty to draw up (write) the CPP to another contractor? Q. And if they can, am I right in thinking therefore that the wording “make arrangements for” would mean that the PC can arrange for anyone to draw up/write a CPP, whether involved with the project or not? Q. And if the PC can ‘arrange’ for another entity to draw up the plan, who would then ‘own’ the plan? The PC or the drafter?
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 04 July 2015 10:19:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

From the wording of regulation 12.-(1) it appears the PC can arrange for another individual or organisation to draw up the CPP. However I think the regulations are quite clear the CPP belongs to the PC. So the answer to your other question is - no, the PC cannot transfer liability to another individual or organisation regardless of whether they have written the CPP. The PC is responsible for site safety, so why would a PC want to engage someone else to draw up the CPP is the real question. I can see no logical reason. The CPP is a 'live' document and must also be updated as and when required - who would do this if not the PC? I think the wording in regulation 12 is ambiguous as it is throughout the CDM Regs and other guidance. You will note various discussions on this forum where people are interpreting the regulations differently and for good reason. The regulations were poorly drafted without sufficient thought of the potential ramifications. I would also argue they are too onerous in a number of different areas - hey ho.
KDP  
#3 Posted : 08 July 2015 13:14:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KDP

Thanks for your view Ray, its reassuring to know my interpretation is shared. Unfortunately, due to the very poorly drafted Regs these types of situations will inevitably arise and disagreement will ensue. BTW, this is a 5+day low risk job, involving appx 4 men + 1 subcontractor employee = 2 contractors = PD,PC, PCI, H&S File. And we (as main contractor, but not PC) have been issued with PCI comprising 170 pages; mostly generic, mostly lists of do's & dont's and with reference to other documents/information held elsewhere which must be located, consulted and information extracted from & adhered to by the contractor before starting work. Seems that "proportionate" is another word/term open to wide-ranging personal interpretation.
RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 08 July 2015 15:26:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

No worries, glad to help. I have been in a similar situation in the past with a corporate client and also a PC when working as a main contractor. The corporate client has a plethora of documentation including procedures for contractors to adhere to in order to insulate themselves should something go awry. Very frustrating to be burdened just because the client calls the shots. Clients are very good at reminding others of their duties but often forgetting to fulfil theirs. The new CDM regs are particularly onerous for small projects - proportionate and sensible they are not!
Ron Hunter  
#5 Posted : 08 July 2015 16:50:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

A hangover from Articles 5 & 6 of the TMCS Directive: "draw up, or cause to be drawn up...."
ashleywillson  
#6 Posted : 09 July 2015 07:25:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ashleywillson

I think my interpretation is going to much the same as Ray's: Q. Can a PC use the “make arrangements for” as a means of passing their duty to draw up (write) the CPP to another contractor? Yes. And why not!? We work for PC's who literally sub out all work for a client. They never get their hands dirty, so surely the people "on the ground" are better placed to write the CPP in the first place since they will be doing the work. I have even seen it where the PC required multiple CPP's (one for the groundworks element, another for the scaffolders etc) meaning that they could compile all the little mini CPP's into one larger one for the development (a new build). IMHO, although this is more than is required, I think it is a great way of ensuring the best documentation (assuming those contractors are H&S savvy) is compiled and kept. Q. And if they can, am I right in thinking therefore that the wording “make arrangements for” would mean that the PC can arrange for anyone to draw up/write a CPP, whether involved with the project or not? Again, yes. Surely a company could get an external H&S consultant to draw it up. As long as that person is given the right information for the CPP, and they are competent to write it, then why not. Q. And if the PC can ‘arrange’ for another entity to draw up the plan, who would then ‘own’ the plan? The PC or the drafter? This is the tricky bit where the regs do go grey... I would say that the PC retains the ownership of the document, and if prosecution were to happen, the PC would be the one in the firing line. Even if drawn up externally, IMO the PC needs to review for suitability. Ultimately they are responsible for the site and for ensuring that all contractors are working safely. Although this extends further than just a CPP, the CPP is a part of it. As advice for anyone out there writing CPP's for others, I always put at the end of the CPP who it has been issued to and when with a little statement which is something like: "This CPP has been compiled on behalf of Long John Construction and has been issued to Mr Long John, Director Health and Safety, who agrees to take ownership of the document" or something like that. Make sure you building your get outta jail free cards!!
KDP  
#7 Posted : 09 July 2015 07:40:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
KDP

Thanks for your view Ashley, I can see you reasoning. And note your 'get of jail' comment. It is unfortunate the Regs & guidance are not concise; Reg 4(5)(a) is quite clear. Yet differs from Reg 12(1). And L153 uses the phrase 'make arrangements for' and yet Appendix 5 of L153 is quite clear. This lack of consistency is not helpful. And as we all know, cheque books always reign.
ashleywillson  
#8 Posted : 09 July 2015 07:54:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ashleywillson

KDP, if they were easy and concise, there would be no need to H&S trained professionals - having the regs this way does, at the end of the day, keep our jobs paying reasonably well! Although sometimes a bit of common sense wouldn't go a miss!!!
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