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Stern  
#1 Posted : 14 July 2015 15:42:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Hi all,

Recently i've been seeing a lot of literature about water mist extinguishers and, other than the comparatively high cost, they seem to be the perfect option for construction sites in that they fight pretty much all classes of fires: class A, B, C, F and electrical.

This flexibility would make providing fire cover to our sites much simpler (only one type of extinguisher to worry about rather than 3 or 4), would make managing our "fleet" of extinguishers much simpler and would also eliminate the risk of people picking up the wrong extinguisher in an emergency situation and potentially making things worse.

My question is, why are these things not everywhere? Is it purely a cost thing (which i appreciate may be an issue in some situations) or is there another issue which i'm not aware of?

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated

Stern
Route66  
#2 Posted : 14 July 2015 17:53:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Route66

Hi
I think it's down to mix of perception and vested interest; plus the plethora of rating numbers.
The Fire Safety industry seems intent on avoiding a 'Plain English Award'.
Look at the different numbers to compare, which are supposed to make it easy to understand the 'knock down' ability of the appliance... 13A, 21B, 75F, etc., etc.

It's also not a globally flat playing field for the industry.
Go to the USA (or more accurately a USA influenced location) and you will find they would rather use an 'ABC' Dry Powder to fight anything and still like Halon. Probably think that CO2 is something you get in a 'soda'.
Some years back I had some very interesting discussions with a USAF Fire Chief about use of DP in a confined space. Look at the relative costs of a CO2 extinguisher on Amazon in the UK it's about £35 for a 2Kg, whilst in the USA the 5lb equivalent will set you back around $150.

Do a search for Water Mist Extinguishers and you will find similar disparity and an even greater issue over ratings. American ones look more like garden pesticide sprays and seem to be rated only for A+C, so Solids+Electrical (remember this is USA classes).
Whereas in the UK/Europe, they seem to be covering ABCF and Electrical!

Consequently, I think people are sticking with their comfort zones...
mssy  
#3 Posted : 14 July 2015 18:25:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

I can buy 3 x 6 litre AFFF extinguishers for less money than 1 x 6 litre water mist.

I will get a total rating of 63A and 432B from the combined output of all three extinguishers, compared with the 13A & 21B of the water mist. So why would I bother changing??




A 6 litre water mist gives a rating of 13A, 21B, 75F for around £107
A 6 litre AFF gives a rating of 21A 144B for about £30
A 3 litre Wet Chemical has a rating of 8A 55B 75F for £80

Source: safelincs.co.uk
Stern  
#4 Posted : 14 July 2015 22:59:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Hi mssy,

Thanks for the response, although I think you're missing the point of the water mist extinguishers. Granted you'll get superior class A and B cover with your three foam extinguishers, but you've got nothing for class C, F or electrical so would need to buy even more extinguishers to cover these areas.

It may well be that in your line of work you only need to consider class A and B fires. However, we have the potential to come up against serveral different types of fire and as such, an all in one solution seems perfect.

1. Saves confusion. No more finding powder extinguishers mistakenly put in the site office whilst a little CO2 is dumped next to the fuel bowser! One extinguisher does it all so no risk of error.

2. Makes managing the company stock easier. 10 identical extinguishers to look after rather than 30+'different shapes and sizes.

3. Gets rid of the risk of someone picking up the wrong type of extinguisher in an emergency situation and potentially making things worse.

4. They can be cost effective when you think of what it would cost to "Tick all the boxes" using separate extinguishers like the typical water/foam/co2 fire trolleys you see on sites all over the country. In your example you'd need to spend £110 (£80 for wet chemical and £30 for water) and even then you've not got cover for class C or electrical. A water mist would cover all this and more for less ££££. Plus again, it's only one unit so less maintenance, management, risk of error etc...

I can see why they're popular, I just can't see why they haven't taken the world by storm!? I'm all for simple safety. Maybe some still like it complicated! :-)
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 15 July 2015 18:21:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Stern, maybe some people simply don't believe water and electrical fires can mix ?
Stern  
#6 Posted : 15 July 2015 19:21:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Firesafety101,

Not sure if that's a genuine comment or a swipe at me due to my question on another thread on your choice to use water extinguishers in offices where the main risk is electrical? As I said on that post, it was a genuine question and not a criticism so I'll assume you saw it for what it was.

As far as water mist extinguishers go, they are safe to be used on electrical fires and I've seen this demonstrated, both in person and on several videos. Yes people "not in the know" are sometimes wary as from childhood we're taught that water & electricity don't mix.

However, this shouldn't matter as it should be those "in the know" who are selecting extinguishers as part of the fire risk assessment so my question was purely, why aren't these things more popular?
mssy  
#7 Posted : 15 July 2015 23:06:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

No, I am not missing the point at all

In one on 'my' buildings, we have about 750 extinguishers - for predominantly A & Electrical fires. We also have a number specialist class D extinguishers but only 2 units for class F

So how can I justify spending £1000s on water mist when (like most buildings) we don't have class C & F fire risks in every area?

Our fire points consist of 2 x 6l AFFF and a 2kg CO2 giving a combined rating of 36A & 366B plus electrical coverage at each point, We simply do not need expensive water mists as they bring nothing extra to the party
toe  
#8 Posted : 16 July 2015 00:46:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Just to make a few points on some of the previous comments that have been made.

I'm not a great fan of these extinguishers but they have their place and uses which in my view is mainly office locations.
I would be initially concerned that this extinguisher may be in place near to a fuel bowser (albeit its not stated the type of fuel in the post) - it would not be my choice of extinguisher for fuel, which could potentially be a large Class B type fire.

Electricity is no a 'class' of fire, it is a cause of fire, and therefore we do not have electrical fire, if the power is live then we have 'fires involving electricity'. Sorry for being pedantic but this does get to me.

I don't rely on the combined ratings of fire extinguishers to fight a fire, combined rating should (IMHO) only be used to establish the requirements for the square foot floor area to be covered. We train our staff to use one extinguisher and only one, when in use if the extinguisher they are using has depleted and the fire is still burning then they will retreat and wait for the fire and rescue service to arrive. When fighting a fire I don't think people should return to find another extinguisher if the one they have used becomes empty.

Can a water mist extinguisher do the same job as a wet chemical for example extinguish a class F fire? I have never come across one and couldn't find one when using a popular search engine.

Stern  
#9 Posted : 16 July 2015 11:30:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Stern

Hi Mssy,

Thanks again for your response but you've missed the point of my initial post (which may have been my fault for not explaining it properly)

My question was regarding the use of water mist extinguishers on construction sites, not in permanent buildings. In a permanent building its easy to be able to put a specific extinguisher in a specific room and even assess the ability of the specific occupant of the room to use it.
Construction sites are different beast entirely.

- The VAST majority of the people working on site won't be employed directly by the company managing the site and providing and providing the extinguishers. Furthermore, many will not speak English as a first language.

-With the best will in the world, many won't have received formal training in the use of extinguishers and may not know what extinguisher does what. Yes i know they SHOULD have training, but in reality they won't have and we have to base our risk assessments on reality, not an ideal version of it.

-The environment is constantly changing. Whilst a water extinguisher might be appropriate in an area in the morning, by the afternoon something else is going on in that area and the water is now no use or worse, actually becomes a hazard. Of course the response form those behind a desk is to "review your risk assessment" but in reality this is extremely difficult to keep on top of on a busy site. I'd even go as far as saying it's bordering impossible.

Taking the above into consideration, the water mists seem the perfect fit for construction sites and whilst they are becoming more popular, i was just wondering why they haven't seen the overnight success that things like wifi linked fire alarms did. One day we were turning bells, the next day every site in the country seemed to have these magic little red boxes! :-)

You seem to be on top of things at your building and i applaud you for that as with 750 extinguishers i'm sure that was one hell of a job! However, with the age old message being that extinguishers should only be used for small fires, i would question why you actually NEED 366B of fire fighting power at every fire point? Is it not a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?
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