Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
nusseyd  
#1 Posted : 11 July 2015 11:16:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
nusseyd

I have a retail client who are planning some minor works modifications to lighting, display shelving and signage in a small section of the sales floor at around 500 stores throughout the UK. The works will only require the involvement of 3 contractors at each site (electrician, signage and shelving shop fitter) all directly appointed by the retail client.

For safety reasons each contractor has been scheduled to undertake their element of the works separately out-of-hours on 3 different nights - sometimes with several days in between - to minimise disruption to store operations and avoid persons working at height while other contractors are working below.

Each contractor will have a foreman/works supervisor in attendance with no more than 5 operatives working at any time. None of these contractors are equipped or will be present at the same time to oversee/manage the other contractors works and, therefore, cannot fulfil the duties of a Principal Contractor.

In terms of management arrangements:
- All contractors employed by the retailer have been pre-qualified before been accepted onto their approved framework management system.
- Each contractor is required to provide risk assessments and a method statement for their work which will be checked and approved by the Project Manager before they are allowed on site.
- Welfare is provided through the use of existing in-house facilities.

Therefore, I guess I need to satisfy myself of the following points:-

1. Under CDM2015 the client becomes the Principal Contractor as well as the Principal Designer by default having provided and agreed the works specification?

2. The only person in attendance at each site to oversee the works is the respective stores Night Duty Manager who under normal procedures should routinely issue contractors with a permit to work based on the retailers safety guidance document for contractors working in store and requirement for contractors to work in accordance with their risk assessments and safe systems of work. Would this be deemed suitable and sufficient in terms of managing the works under CDM?

3. Although the works are not notifiable individually on a store by store basis, do they become notifiable collectively by exceeding 500 person days across multiple site locations, with the programme spread over 3 months?

Any thoughts and guidance would be most welcome. Thanks.
bob youel  
#2 Posted : 13 July 2015 08:50:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

close each supplier down in the terms and conditions of the contract so as liabilities are moved to the supplier as far as U can do ---------------and each 'team' should have a supervisor of some type present on site at all times or at least an appointed lead hand who should be properly managing the people/the job so that should be all that U need & should something negative happen then the supervisor/lead hand concerned should be held to account and your individually based shop supervisors can play a part

the HSE used to be keen on 'proximity' but they seen to have moved away from that principal these days (as they have with all their other principals). However I would notify to be on the safe side just in case as I do not think that that there is any new guidance that specifically covers such areas at this time --------and get yourself as up to date with the new CDM regs as U can noting that there is no case law as yet to support anybody [and the regs, in my view, are very poorly written]

best of luck

Alfasev  
#3 Posted : 14 July 2015 11:39:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

This is an enduring CDM question. To answer this you must consider how the works were envisaged, planned and how you intend to carry them out. If it feels and looks like a single project then it is probably notifiable.

For example if the work have been bundled together, considered a single project by the client and carried out under a single contract then it is notifiable.

However being notifiable has lost its ramification under CDM 2015.
Fun Police  
#4 Posted : 14 July 2015 12:06:15(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Fun Police

There needs to be a phase plan in place for the works and I would ensure a first aid qualified person is present during the activities.
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 14 July 2015 13:09:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I just did a CPP for one like this with another to do this afternoon.

Small works, painting, lighting, joinery etc. a small CPP with a few RAMS.

Not being notified but the same client is involved in lots of such works.

Same Lead Designer (although not notifiable) and just a single contractor. You may say OTT but it does keep a certain control.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 14 July 2015 21:54:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Interesting set of questions - my responses below -

1. If the Client does not appoint a PC and PD then they become the aforementioned by default. If there is no other designer involved or design input, then the client will by definition become the PD. If no contractor has the overall responsibility of managing other contractors, then the client will by definition become the PC.

2. A PC is not required to closely supervise other contractors. The level of supervision should be proportionate to the risks. Hence in the relatively low risk tasks you have identified I believe the Night Duty Manager would be deemed acceptable. It may be prudent to brief these managers on the task and potential risks prior to the work.

3. It makes good sense to aggregate the work into one notifiable project. However, as someone else has alluded, the purpose of notification has really been lost because it no longer triggers any other duties. The sole reason for notification is to flag the project up to the HSE who will have absolutely no interest in this project whatsoever.
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 14 July 2015 22:46:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Re supervisiong sub contractors, I know what the Regs say but our safecontractor scheme competence checkers want to see documented evidence that our Foreman monitors the work of sub contractors.

I had to devise a section in the daily safety check to include just that with signature.
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 15 July 2015 09:14:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

FireSafety101 wrote:
Re supervisiong sub contractors, I know what the Regs say but our safecontractor scheme competence checkers want to see documented evidence that our Foreman monitors the work of sub contractors.

I had to devise a section in the daily safety check to include just that with signature.


Indeed, but it smacks of the tail wagging the dog.
firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 15 July 2015 18:18:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

It is Ray but it is something we can't get away from.

I've been many hours during the pasy few months sorting out the requirements of the scheme for the annual review and think it is done now.

A right pain in the back side and expensive for my client.
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 16 July 2015 08:25:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Firesafety

Monitoring subbies is not unusual, both for quality and safety. How you record this is another matter especially if you need a tick in the box. The point is that there is no requirement to closely supervise subbies and I suppose we could argue what exactly does 'closely supervise' mean in practice.
DP  
#11 Posted : 24 July 2015 11:43:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

I have some presentations from a recent retail event covering the CDM in retail - PM me your mail I'll send you the link
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.