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GB1977  
#1 Posted : 17 August 2015 16:08:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
GB1977

Hi

Do any of you have guidance on how to set a maximum limit on the numbers allowed in a training room? I am being asked to set a limit on each of our 20 odd training rooms.

Thanks
kenty  
#2 Posted : 17 August 2015 16:29:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
kenty

It will depend on a number of factors including

the size of room, can it be configured to suit (boardroom, caberet etc)

course requirements (does the awarding body set a maximum number of delegates?)

whether the course is just sitting at a desk, or requires practical work (e.g. first aid training).

How many delegate the trainer is happy to take
walker  
#3 Posted : 17 August 2015 16:39:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Ignoring the facilities issues
I don't like training more than 10 at a time .....12 at a push depending on the subject and audience.
Equally I don't like small numbers either as you need to get them to participate.
Jane Blunt  
#4 Posted : 18 August 2015 08:52:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

You cannot be prescriptive. It depends on so many factors. In a University it could be hundreds!
saferay  
#5 Posted : 18 August 2015 09:37:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
saferay

It really does depend on the course you are delivering. Some of our training sessions can have up to 40 attendees which involve mostly 'chalk 'n' talk' with a few small group activities and an online test after the session. We also have training sessions where a maximum of 6 are accepted (Ladder Inspector course) which involves a practical session with ladders as well as the 'chalk 'n' talk' section first.
The most I have ever had on a course is 63 with a paper Q&A sheet at the end.
GB1977  
#6 Posted : 18 August 2015 11:57:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
GB1977

Thanks for the responses.

Just to clarify. The rooms we have are all pretty small rooms and the training we provide has limits set based on the requirements of the training. The issue though is that for example we have a limit of 12 on a course but due to the size of the room people have complained that it is too small and the limit should be less. People have tried to set smaller limits but without any justification or reasoning behind the limits. This has lead to rooms that have a limit of 8 but then more being let in as the manager or trainer thinks the limit is too small.

I was looking for a calculation I could use to set definitive limits based on the size of each room. At the moment the limits have been arbitrarily set without any reasonable justification.

Hope that makes sense.
Kate  
#7 Posted : 18 August 2015 12:38:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The only at all relevant calculation method I know of is the one set out in the ACoP to the Workplace regs, based on cubic metres per person (it's a bit more complicated than that - see the ACoP for details).
billinl2  
#8 Posted : 19 August 2015 09:31:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
billinl2

I've used the calculator on this website in the past as a guide. You just need to input the square meterage of the room and it gives suggested numbers based on the layout you will be using. http://www.jigsawconfere...scapacitycalculator.aspx
RSO  
#9 Posted : 19 August 2015 13:33:21(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
RSO

Granted it isn't a workplace for them but how many children are in a classroom these days? It depends upon a number of factors as has already been mentioned.
jay  
#10 Posted : 19 August 2015 14:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

There is no prescribed criteria as it may also depend upon the nature and duration of training and training materials used.
jay  
#11 Posted : 19 August 2015 14:15:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The minimum space referred to in paragraph 97 of the ACoP does not apply to:
■■ retail sales kiosks, attendants’ shelters, machine control cabs or similar small structures, where space is necessarily limited;
■■ rooms being used for lectures, meetings and similar purposes.
Lisa Boulton  
#12 Posted : 19 August 2015 14:23:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lisa Boulton

In the past I have looked at the fire safety evacuation routes/safe means of escape so number of doors, travel distances, door sizes etc. and then also looked at the floor space factor used in Approved Document B (fire safety) this has generally been quite helpful in determining occupation numbers of rooms other than offices.
GB1977  
#13 Posted : 20 August 2015 15:50:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
GB1977

Thanks to everyone for their responses

Guyzy1982  
#14 Posted : 21 August 2015 10:31:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Guyzy1982

pretty new to this but i would also go off Fire Regs (as Lisa said), looking at Occupancy Levels, mainly looking at room size, exits, tasks occurring, etc.....

Plus if its a course where you expect persons to be given more help, one to one work, clearly i would put a cap on the number to ensure learners get the best out of the course.

As mentioned, colleges and universities have large lecture rooms (at least mine did) and i believe the amount of learners should go off fire regs!

cheers
Rees21880  
#15 Posted : 26 August 2015 13:51:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Rees21880

Personally, I'd do a couple of additional things that don't seem to have been covered in the previous responses.....

1. You may be lucky that you have an archived copy of the old building fire certificate. This will be very prescriptive (albeit in relation to outofdate legislation) but will be a very good starting point.

2. Use the existing Building Regs requirements for both travel distances and escape route minimum widths. For example, if the escape route is only 1m wide then you're probably only going to have max approx. 50 people exiting from any side room into that escape route.

3. Contact your local fire officer. They are always exceptionally helpful and will be able to provide definitive advice and guidance.

Just my thoughts :-)

Pete
Guyzy1982  
#16 Posted : 26 August 2015 15:53:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Guyzy1982

Rees21880 wrote:
Personally, I'd do a couple of additional things that don't seem to have been covered in the previous responses.....

1. You may be lucky that you have an archived copy of the old building fire certificate. This will be very prescriptive (albeit in relation to outofdate legislation) but will be a very good starting point.

2. Use the existing Building Regs requirements for both travel distances and escape route minimum widths. For example, if the escape route is only 1m wide then you're probably only going to have max approx. 50 people exiting from any side room into that escape route.

3. Contact your local fire officer. They are always exceptionally helpful and will be able to provide definitive advice and guidance.

Just my thoughts :-)

Pete



Thought my comment covered that 'Exit's'??? :P

You also want to look at other floors, for example if you have an office on the 1st floor and have only one direction of travel to the ground floor, then the max occupants for the 1st floor shouldn't exceed 60 persons i believe.

40 persons per minute should be able to fit through a 750mm exit, check the class of the building also, (A,B or C) which will give you a guidance time that a full evac should take!
matelot1965  
#17 Posted : 26 August 2015 20:40:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
matelot1965

Hi GB

I have been doing the same in a college just recently for engineering workshops BS4163:2014 provides guidance which may help or may not it is the only definitive guidance that I have found and it states

BS 4163:2014 Health and safety for design and technology in educational and similar establishments – Code of practice states that:

‘In England and Wales, there should be a maximum of 20 learners with one competent, qualified teacher in any one work area.’

‘In Scotland and Northern Ireland, there should be a maximum of 20 pupils for all classes in practical subjects.’
matelot1965  
#18 Posted : 26 August 2015 20:41:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
matelot1965

Further to my las post here is the link

https://www.data.org.uk/...t-workshops-and-studios/

Route66  
#19 Posted : 27 August 2015 13:56:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Route66

This really does depend on a number of factors, not least the subject/topic.

My portfolio of services includes training and for accredited courses, the Awarding Body specified limits, of 12 in some cases, but 16 in others.
For First Aid, they will allow more than 12 if two instructors share the workload.
But I had a major falling out with a company I used to do some freelance/subcontracting work for, one of the reasons being the inappropriate facilities they would often send me to.
Just because their client said they had a room for 12 trainees, they would send me there, and I'd find I could only sensibly take 6 people due to the limited floor space for FAW exercises.

So you might have a room that is fine for X number when seated for the duration of the course, but reducing it to 8 or 6 if physical activities are required.
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