Rank: Forum user
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Hi everyone, I'm wondering if its correct to use cross reference in risk assessments. E.g. if I'm doing a RA for, let's say, slinging operations and I've identified some manual handling hazards, do I have to fully describe controls that need to be put in place with regard to manual handling or can I simply refer the reader to another RA that deals with manual handling hazards? Some hazards are more complex and describing all relevant controls in one single RA would simply be Ctrl+c, Ctrl+v operation.
Thanks all.
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Rank: Forum user
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I would personally refer to other SSoW & Guidance documents using page numbers and titles covering the hazard or even topic, i like to quote British Standards also.
Some of my risk assessments and espeically fire one's would go on and on and on, so referring to other documents but also giving the RP access to these documents makes it easier and in my opinion more efficient.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I personnally would say it was ok as long as you named the document and stated 'refer to national procedures'
I do it with SSOW's, method statements, and different regulations, stating the regulation no and paragraph if applicable.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks for your replies. I meant reference to your other risk assessments rather than to regulations/standards.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Yea, sorry I do that as well, in fact just done it with regards to violence.
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Rank: Forum user
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Of course you can cross-refer. As RA is (meant to be) a management tool, to identify what measures are needed for identified risk, you can do it anyway you want. The objective is that the business is safe 'so far as is reasonably practicable' and compliant with specific requirements where these exist. There are no set rules on how to do, or record. Bear in mind it is expected that managers assess risk, and it is 'good practice' to involve (or at least consult) the workforce, usually via competent supervisors. Have a good look at the HSE guidance and FAQs on RA; sometimes we (SPs) forget to use the huge resource available from the enforcers. There is also a wealth of discussion and a variety of opinion to be perused if you search this forum.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Personally I would be wary of cross-referencing. It's all very well if the end-user has access to the document, however if it was a hard copy and the cross-referencing was say via a hyper link, then it would be as much use as a chocolate fireplace!
For information i.e. further reading you could reference other documents, but this is different altogether. Unwieldy thought it may be, I would prefer to see all the hazards associated with the task articulated in the RA - just my opinion.
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Rank: Super forum user
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if there is a same typical hazard on second part of task , it is reasonable to cross reference ..but if you just cross referencing to another document..e.g Control measures in HSG guidance no....Come on no one would go to read it!
SHV
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Rank: Super forum user
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I don't add everything to the new R/A, but as it is easy to cut and paste it's just as easy. I suppose it also depends on the level of risk the task offers.
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Rank: Super forum user
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RayRapp wrote:. It's all very well if the end-user has access to the document End users (beyond those conducting the assessment) would be those responsible for closing-out actions to enable a satisfactory mitigation of risk (SFARP). I would expect those responsible to have access to intranet etc. R/A = management tool and management process. SSoW = end user.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Agreed Ron, but I have been in a position where the hyper linked document is not available due to location, IT glitches, etc.
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Rank: Forum user
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RayRapp wrote:Agreed Ron, but I have been in a position where the hyper linked document is not available due to location, IT glitches, etc. No, I was talking about hard copies. That is, our employee is delegated to work off site but the client required a risk assessment. Our employee takes hard copies of relevant RAs with him to the job. So, again, I'm not asking if it's OK to include references to regulations/acops/etc. but to other RAs prepared by the same company (say all of them are in one folder, RA 2 can have ref in it to RA 10 if all hazards identified in RA 10 are relevant for RA 2 as well). I am aware of the risk of possible "endless" referencing, e.g. RA2 refers to RA10, RA10 refers to RA 4, etc. but I'm talking about doing it reasonably and only when practical - instead of pasting 3 pages copied from another RA, you just refer the reader to it, that's all.
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Rank: Super forum user
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In which case, you might want to convince your Client that a site-specific Method Statement (or combined RAMS) would be more meaningful? They would usually also have an input to that document (hazards and controls specific to the host employer's workplace).
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Rank: Super forum user
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there are a number of parts to such areas;-
The academic exercise where cross referencing, quantity of documentation etc. is managed & in my view CR is OK and probably a must at this point to get a full picture
The day to day working situation where all the detail noted above is made as easily readable/workable etc. as possible to the worker e.g. large academic RA's etc. are turned into 1 'working' page at the most noting only the real risk points -- I have done this for years in all kinds of work complicated situations
And adequate training and management for all concerned
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Rank: Super forum user
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michal.toroj wrote:RayRapp wrote:Agreed Ron, but I have been in a position where the hyper linked document is not available due to location, IT glitches, etc. No, I was talking about hard copies. That is, our employee is delegated to work off site but the client required a risk assessment. Our employee takes hard copies of relevant RAs with him to the job. So, again, I'm not asking if it's OK to include references to regulations/acops/etc. but to other RAs prepared by the same company (say all of them are in one folder, RA 2 can have ref in it to RA 10 if all hazards identified in RA 10 are relevant for RA 2 as well). I am aware of the risk of possible "endless" referencing, e.g. RA2 refers to RA10, RA10 refers to RA 4, etc. but I'm talking about doing it reasonably and only when practical - instead of pasting 3 pages copied from another RA, you just refer the reader to it, that's all. What you need to ask yourself is whether the end-user will bother referring to another RA where there are numerous references? I stand by my original post, in that I dislike this type of referencing for reasons I have stated. It could be construed as a lazy method of articulating the risks associated with a task. If I was approving a RA or a Method Statement, which included a RA, and some risks were referenced I would not approve the document. With respect, if we are going to do RAs then let's make them meaningful and not just a paper exercise.
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Rank: Forum user
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Good point RayRapp, I think it's better to put less information to address a particular hazard instead of referring to another document. I think the reference can be there just in case someone wants to get into more details regarding hazard controls
Thank you all for your input.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ray i'll go with you on this one, I wasn't against the idea of cross referencing but I have just been looking at the assessments here and 6 times in the one assessment I was advised to go to other assessments. When I looked whoever completed them could of just cut and pasted it into the assessment I was looking at.
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