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SBH  
#1 Posted : 28 August 2015 09:45:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SBH

We found an individual on the roof of the room where we have an MRI Scanner located. In simple terms is the scanner strong enough to harm someone directly above if they have metal on them. Yes I realise the implications for permits etc but first we need to know if there is a hazard present. SBH
Ian Bell2  
#2 Posted : 28 August 2015 09:55:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

How is anybody on here supposed to answer the question without knowing more about the scanner? Power output? Why not ask the supplier/manufacturer of the scanner, who will have the technical details and product knowledge and the likely risk that you have mentioned.
Route66  
#3 Posted : 28 August 2015 10:02:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Route66

Sorry, but have to agree with Ian, that's a 'How long is a piece of string?' question. The options are numerous, like the size of the MRI and the construction of the building to name but 2 of many questions.
Jane Blunt  
#4 Posted : 28 August 2015 10:12:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

If he is OK, then he got away with it. You need to find out the magnetic field pattern around the scanner and find out what the vertical distances are to the 5 gauss line. It is almost certainly fine, as these machines are often in multistorey buildings. The people who set up the machine (i.e. the in-house staff) will almost certianly have this information. The axis of a body scanner magnet is generally horizontal and the exclusion distance is likely to be symmetrical, so the exclusion distance perpendicular to the axis is likely to be the same in all directions (i.e. to the sides, underneath and over the top). The 5 gauss line is usually used to prevent danger to people with implants such as pacemakers. The danger from flying objects kicks in a little closer to the magnet.
AllanFS  
#5 Posted : 28 August 2015 10:57:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
AllanFS

Also question as to why was someone on the roof of the room where the Scanner is held. Permits / Exclusion Zones etc.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 28 August 2015 11:04:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Pardon me if this is a silly question but is the MRI scanner room lead lined? I do know some of these scanners have lead lined walls, ceilings, doors and special glazing. If so there is no problem as that lining is designed to prevent anything escaping from the room.
Ian Bell2  
#7 Posted : 28 August 2015 11:14:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

FireSafety101 wrote:
Pardon me if this is a silly question but is the MRI scanner room lead lined? I do know some of these scanners have lead lined walls, ceilings, doors and special glazing. If so there is no problem as that lining is designed to prevent anything escaping from the room.
Why would the room need to be lead lined.... MRI scanners don't generate ionising radiation 'MRI does not use ionizing radiation (high-energy radiation that can potentially cause damage to DNA, like the x-rays used CT scans). There are no known harmful side-effects associated with temporary exposure to the strong magnetic field used by MRI scanners.' http://www.fda.gov/Radia...calImaging/ucm200086.htm
Psycho  
#8 Posted : 28 August 2015 11:22:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

He should contact his UNISON health and safety rep as soon as possible this person has been radiated with magnets and that is serious a claim is not for compensation its to prevent it happening to others in the future Had he been a CT scanner this would need immeadiate reporting to the NHS, only if the field goes from the room it should not as it will have radiation absorbing material in the roof lining. As it’s an MRI scanner and its magnetism there is no problem. The risk in an MRI scanner is noise the persons have to wear ear defenders, it is that loud. Followed by flying objects or moving metal, thats why you cant go in the room with a pacemaker , not that it will stop , its because the sensor wire may move --walking through the field has no adverse effects, Lead does not stop magnetism , there is no substance on earth that is a magnetic isolator, so the lobes are reduced and channeled ,so that leakage will be minimised I once witnessed a screw driver fly from an electrician’s hand working in the room under a scanner from about 18 inches and he could not get it off the ceiling, He should have read the signs and used phozzy bronze screwdrivers
Ian Bell2  
#9 Posted : 28 August 2015 11:48:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Why raise CT scanners into the discussion when the original question was clearly about MRI scanners. Keep to the subject. More NHS union scaremongering....
Jane Blunt  
#10 Posted : 28 August 2015 11:56:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Psycho wrote:
there is no substance on earth that is a magnetic isolator,
You can shield to a degree, see this material https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal
johnmurray  
#11 Posted : 28 August 2015 12:47:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

There's that old inverse-square-law again........I should say "the roof above" is relatively safe.....WAH regs withstanding.....
Psycho  
#12 Posted : 28 August 2015 12:53:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

JohnMurray wrote:
There's that old inverse-square-law again........I should say "the roof above" is relatively safe.....WAH regs withstanding.....
Cant beat a good inverse square law where you have to multipy the power by a factor of 16 to double the range..
JayPownall  
#13 Posted : 28 August 2015 12:58:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JayPownall

Psycho wrote:
He should contact his UNISON health and safety rep as soon as possible this person has been radiated with magnets and that is serious a claim is not for compensation its to prevent it happening to others in the future
..radiated with magnets...an MRI isn't ionising? I better stay away from the magnet encrusted fridge door then otherwise I might breach my dose limit for the year!
Jane Blunt  
#14 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:00:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Inverse square laws don't work well for things that are not point sources. An MRI machine is not a point source.
firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:12:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Ian Bell2 wrote:
FireSafety101 wrote:
Pardon me if this is a silly question but is the MRI scanner room lead lined? I do know some of these scanners have lead lined walls, ceilings, doors and special glazing. If so there is no problem as that lining is designed to prevent anything escaping from the room.
Why would the room need to be lead lined.... MRI scanners don't generate ionising radiation 'MRI does not use ionizing radiation (high-energy radiation that can potentially cause damage to DNA, like the x-rays used CT scans). There are no known harmful side-effects associated with temporary exposure to the strong magnetic field used by MRI scanners.' http://www.fda.gov/Radia...calImaging/ucm200086.htm
Thank you Ian, I did start with Pardon me if this is a silly question and you have answered in a not so decent fashion. I have been in MRI scanners myself, and been with my daughter when she was in a few times and noted only a few people are allowed in the room and the controllers are behind glass. 2+2 = 5 and I get shot ha ha.
biker1  
#16 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:13:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Might also be worth considering that MRI scanners use such powerful magnets that they have to be cooled with liquid Helium; any leakage of this will result in the escape of Helium gas, which being lighter than air will gather at the highest point i.e the ceiling. Apart from instantly gaining the ability to talk like Donald Duck, anyone at this level risks asphyxiation.
johnmurray  
#17 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:13:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Jane Blunt wrote:
Inverse square laws don't work well for things that are not point sources. An MRI machine is not a point source.
That's because you are hung-up on the definition of "point source". Since for gravity purposes; a planet/sun/etc is considered to be a point source. The field around an mri scanner is near toroidal in shape, the strongest field is within the scanner. The roof is not within the scanner.......
Ian Bell2  
#18 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:25:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

FireSafety101 wrote:
Ian Bell2 wrote:
FireSafety101 wrote:
Pardon me if this is a silly question but is the MRI scanner room lead lined? Why would the room need to be lead lined.... MRI scanners don't generate ionising radiation 'MRI does not use ionizing radiation (high-energy radiation that can potentially cause damage to DNA, like the x-rays used CT scans). There are no known harmful side-effects associated with temporary exposure to the strong magnetic field used by MRI scanners.' http://www.fda.gov/Radia...calImaging/ucm200086.htm
Thank you Ian, I did start with Pardon me if this is a silly question and you have answered in a not so decent fashion. I have been in MRI scanners myself, and been with my daughter when she was in a few times and noted only a few people are allowed in the room and the controllers are behind glass. 2+2 = 5 and I get shot ha ha.
A straight questioning of facts. It took 30sec to Google the hazards from MRI scanners.... 'Hook, line & sinker' comes to mind
Jane Blunt  
#19 Posted : 28 August 2015 13:34:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Yes, the field is greatest inside the scanner, but the field on the outside can be very large and can go considerable distances. The helium is not an issue as this person was on the roof, not on the ceiling. It is possible that there is a vent on the roof for handling helium in the event of a quench, but the probability of that happening while he is up there is very low. The manufacturer of the magnet will have supplied documentation giving the extent of the field to the 5 gauss limit in all directions. This is the document to find. I spent years working with superconducting magnets, so have an idea of what this is about without resorting to Google.
stonecold  
#20 Posted : 28 August 2015 14:02:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Off subject but i remember a time when people actually had manners. Cant abide arrogant know it alls who dont understand the meaning of the word polite.
Jane Blunt  
#21 Posted : 28 August 2015 14:49:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

OK, I'll put my hand up Stonecold. Unfortunately this topic has gone seriously wrong (in the scientific understanding) at a number of points and, unless the original poster knows this, they are likely to pursue the wrong information. This is sort of frustrating when you know how to get the answer to their problem.
stonecold  
#22 Posted : 28 August 2015 15:14:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Jane Blunt wrote:
OK, I'll put my hand up Stonecold. Unfortunately this topic has gone seriously wrong (in the scientific understanding) at a number of points and, unless the original poster knows this, they are likely to pursue the wrong information. This is sort of frustrating when you know how to get the answer to their problem.
Actually i never meant you haha...i probably should have kept my thoughts to myself but am having a bad day and fancied a rant :)
firesafety101  
#23 Posted : 28 August 2015 16:06:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Ian Bell2 wrote:
FireSafety101 wrote:
Ian Bell2 wrote:
FireSafety101 wrote:
Pardon me if this is a silly question but is the MRI scanner room lead lined? Why would the room need to be lead lined.... MRI scanners don't generate ionising radiation 'MRI does not use ionizing radiation (high-energy radiation that can potentially cause damage to DNA, like the x-rays used CT scans). There are no known harmful side-effects associated with temporary exposure to the strong magnetic field used by MRI scanners.' http://www.fda.gov/Radia...calImaging/ucm200086.htm
Thank you Ian, I did start with Pardon me if this is a silly question and you have answered in a not so decent fashion. I have been in MRI scanners myself, and been with my daughter when she was in a few times and noted only a few people are allowed in the room and the controllers are behind glass. 2+2 = 5 and I get shot ha ha.
A straight questioning of facts. It took 30sec to Google the hazards from MRI scanners.... 'Hook, line & sinker' comes to mind
Ha ha he message to the Mods and all contributers to thia forum, please don't bother starting a new topic as you can get all the answers from simply googling. End of discussion forum as we knew it. Stonecold I Think I know who you were writing about, please correct me if I am wrong. Ian your surname says it all ha ha.
Ian Bell2  
#24 Posted : 29 August 2015 10:17:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

How child like.
bleve  
#25 Posted : 29 August 2015 10:37:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bleve

Some things never change....How is this helpful to the OP's request/question. What is the perception of others possibly looking at this forum for the first time? What is the perception of the OP? AS professionals we should consider our competence and external perception when providing responses/replies to posts.
johnmurray  
#26 Posted : 29 August 2015 10:51:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Not my problem! After several episodes in an MRI scanner (I'm still here) I conclude that short term biological effects are nil (but I have no tattoos) for me. The operator is in the same area, albeit several metres remote from me (and no screen). Compare that to a recent HRCT scan, where the operators were in a heavily screened area...and red lights were on and the doors secured. Reading between the lines I conclude that of greater risk to the patient, in an MRI scan, is the high-power rapidly-varying RF fields (up to 400MHZ)....mention has been made that localised heating in heavily-tattooed areas may be a large hazard. On the roof is irrelevant to RF because the MRI scan area is usually screened to RF anyway.. Still, not to worry.....here is an risky sorta data thingy.... http://www.willis.com/do...afety_August_2009_V6.pdf I would not worry much about MRI effects on roof climbers....I've been exposed to non-ionising radiation of several kilowatts many times over the years, and that has not damaged me....although I notice a tendency to howl during a full moon...and I also note that the noise inside the coil is absolutely deafening, even with ear plugs.
Jane Blunt  
#27 Posted : 29 August 2015 13:27:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Sorry, but again there is misunderstanding. Tosome people who have medical implants, such as some designs of pacemaker, the static magnetic field can be a significant hazard. They can be exposed to serious risk if they go within the 5 Gauss line. This is the principle reason why the OP needs to find out whether the roof is a 'no go' area or permit to work area or not. You will note from the document that John has linked to his post, that the 5 Gauss line can be a considerable distance from the machine and, as i have pointed out before, it extends also in the vertical direction, both above and below the magnet.
johnmurray  
#28 Posted : 30 August 2015 09:30:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

All of which SHOULD be the responsibility of the contractor/employer. "HEALTH AND SAFETY RISKS IN MAGNETIC SHIELDING DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION FOR MAGNETIC RESONANCE IMAGING (MRI) SUITES " http://researchrepositor...pository_16_Feb_2012.pdf
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