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batman1056  
#1 Posted : 29 September 2015 13:04:39(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
batman1056

I have had a few discussions on CDM2015 and the use of sub contractors - can any of your provide any additional insight or understanding of this legislation. The following situations are based upon the use of the organisations on construction works. 1. If we appoint one contractor throughout the whole process - I believe we don't have to appoint a PD and PC and these duties are not required. 2. If we appoint one contractor, then that contractor goes bankrupt and we appoint a second contractor we need to appoint a PD and PC even though only one contractor is actually working on the project as the original contractor is no longer able to complete the task. 3. If we appoint one contractor and that contractor decides to bring in two sub contractors (example and electrician and a joiner) am I correct in assuming that we do not need a PD and PC as we are only using one contractor who is utilising his staff and sub-contractors for the task. 4. If we appoint two contractors from the outset, or believe more than one is required at different stages of the task then we need to appoint a PD and PC from the outset. 5. If we appoint one contractor and then bring in a sub contractor ourselves - we need a PD and PC. Any comments or clarification on the above 5 would be useful as the confusion I am finding is about the term sub-contractor and when they are being managed and appointed by the contractor.
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 29 September 2015 13:35:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I will try to answer your lengthy (bite size chunks preferred) questions. As the client and where more than one contractor (see reg 5. below) a PC and PD needs to be appointed, otherwise the duties fall to the client. Not sure about question 2, but I suspect the first (bankrupt) contractor would be irrelevant and you would only have one contractor if a new one was appointed. If you appoint one contractor and as soon as he brings in a sub-contractor then 'more than one contractor' principle would apply (see reg 2. below). Question 4 and 5 as above, unless you as the client accept the role of either PC or PD. 5.—(1) Where there is more than one contractor, or if it is reasonably foreseeable that more than one contractor will be working on a project at any time, the client must appoint in writing— (a) a designer with control over the pre-construction phase as principal designer; and . (b) a contractor as principal contractor. 2.—(1) In these Regulations— “contractor” means any person (including a non-domestic client) who, in the course or furtherance of a business, carries out, manages or controls construction work;
batman1056  
#3 Posted : 29 September 2015 13:44:34(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
batman1056

thanks I know the next question I will be asked will be how do we ensure we evaluate the required competencies (skills, knowledge etc) of the PC we are wanting to appoint?
batman1056  
#4 Posted : 29 September 2015 13:45:30(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
batman1056

I mean - how do we demonstrate we have evaluated the PC to ensure they have the required skills etc.
peter gotch  
#5 Posted : 29 September 2015 13:49:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

L153 "Managing health and safety in construction" (free download but subject to copyright) paras 60 and 64 encourage you to avoid bureaucracy by using PAS 91 or a contractor who is third party assessed by a member of the Safety Schemes in Procurement (SSIP) forum. For example we have approval by Lloyds Register Quality Assurance of our management systems against OHSAS 18001. This ticks the SSIP box.
achrn  
#6 Posted : 29 September 2015 14:03:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

I think you are a client in all this. That seems to be the implication, and that's what I'm assuming. I agree with RayRap. Note that reg 5 is more than one contractor AT ANY TIME, and if you had one contractor who goes bust they won't be working when the second one is appointed, so I don't think you would need PC and PD. You definitely do need a PC and PD if you appoint a contractor and they appoint a subcontractor - it's about how many are working, not who appoints them. How to assess competency (but without mention the word) is less clearly defined in the new regs because the HSE wants to discourage the competency-assessment industry, which has become principally about making paperwork and profit, not ensuring safety. Have you seen INDG411? It doesn't answer your question, but you probably need to read it so you know about it - http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg411.pdf Slightly more useful overall is the CITB guidance - http://www.citb.co.uk/he.../cdm-guidance-documents/ However, with respect to competence it basically says use PAS91 (a free download from BSI) or use an SSIP member, and the SSIP members are all the competence-assessment-industry that we didn't like anyway. If you want to do competence assessment yourself, SSIP publish the core criteria by which members are supposed to judge competence. It is buried in an appendix to http://www.ssip.org.uk/docs/TermsOfReference.pdf and I suggest you look at the table in Appendix 7, which identifies 'standard to be achieved' and 'Examples of the evidence that you could use to demonstrate you meet the required standard'. You could pick out the things that are relevant to PD / PC appointments.
walker  
#7 Posted : 29 September 2015 14:24:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

batman1056 wrote:
I mean - how do we demonstrate we have evaluated the PC to ensure they have the required skills etc.
Maybe you need to look at Associated Octel case law to understand your duties as a client
Ron Hunter  
#8 Posted : 29 September 2015 16:01:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

You need to consider this from first principles. The reason for additional appointments and duties (in CDM and TMCSD) is to ensure effective cooperation, coordination and communication of risk. If it is foreseeable that there will be more than one contractor (i.e. more than one contracting employer/organisation) concurrently on site, then the PD and PC appointments kick -in. It doesn't matter what direct appointment the Client makes, it's about what is foreseeable. There is a degree of arbitrariness to the Regulations. The same argument (of increased risk) could equally apply if there were more than one Designer on the Project - but that's not what the Directive says.
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