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HSE_Steve  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2015 11:46:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Good Morning All, wonder if you can help. We currently have all our lifting accessories sent out to be 'tested' every six months. These are mainly lifting straps, hooks, fork extensions etc. We have been using the same company for many years (well before I joined) and they appear to be well established, organised, competent etc. They have 9001 accreditation and have sent through competence certs for their engineers. I have only recently recently really scrutinised the certs they send through, which say 'CERTIFICATE OF TEST AND EXAMINATION TESTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATIONS LAID DOWN IN LOLER'. Then it lists each item tested with serial number, description, date, proof load and swl - everything I would expect. However, it then states 'This is not a report of thorough examination as required in accordance with loler.....' I have spoken with the company and been assured that what we are doing is correct, as the 'test' they do is beyond what is required? I have requested an email to be sent to clarify what they mean. My question is, as far as I can see LOLER is quite clear that a THOROUGH EXAMINATION must be carried out, and this certificate plainly states this is NOT a certificate of thorough examination? Any thoughts would be much appreciated, as I'm inclined to believe the company who do them as they seem to know what they're talking about, its just I cant reconcile that with the regs. thanks. Stephen
Invictus  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:00:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

1. You don't need everything testing every 6 months, 6 months is for something that lifts people. 2. if it says this is not a thorough examination, then it isn't. It's as simple as that.
Colossians 1:14  
#3 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:03:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

HSE_Steve wrote:
Good Morning All, wonder if you can help. We currently have all our lifting accessories sent out to be 'tested' every six months. These are mainly lifting straps, hooks, fork extensions etc. We have been using the same company for many years (well before I joined) and they appear to be well established, organised, competent etc. They have 9001 accreditation and have sent through competence certs for their engineers. I have only recently recently really scrutinised the certs they send through, which say 'CERTIFICATE OF TEST AND EXAMINATION TESTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH REGULATIONS LAID DOWN IN LOLER'. Then it lists each item tested with serial number, description, date, proof load and swl - everything I would expect. However, it then states 'This is not a report of thorough examination as required in accordance with loler.....' I have spoken with the company and been assured that what we are doing is correct, as the 'test' they do is beyond what is required? I have requested an email to be sent to clarify what they mean. My question is, as far as I can see LOLER is quite clear that a THOROUGH EXAMINATION must be carried out, and this certificate plainly states this is NOT a certificate of thorough examination? Any thoughts would be much appreciated, as I'm inclined to believe the company who do them as they seem to know what they're talking about, its just I cant reconcile that with the regs. thanks. Stephen
Check everything, at a previous employment I found out the company we used were not doing tests/examinations and were just putting the coloured tags (which we used as visual indicators to show items as being in-date) onto equipment. They also didn't conform to legislation with regard to reports and time scales. This company is a large 'reputable' organisation.
Colossians 1:14  
#4 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:08:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

6-monthly is for lifting accessories aswell whether people are lifted or not!
HSE_Steve  
#5 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:11:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Most of our stuff is 'accessories' which I think should be done every 6 months. Invictus, as you say, if it states this is not a thorough examination then it isn't. Cant really argue with that and this is where I am struggling. The company are certainly doing more than putting the tags on, (at least they say they are), but yet this certificate does say 'THIS IS NOT.....'.
Invictus  
#6 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:14:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

My apologise of course there inspected 6 monthly.
Colossians 1:14  
#7 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:17:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

I would ask myself if the equipment failed would the certificate satisfy the requirement in the Regs and therefore the enforcing authority regardless of what anybody is telling me?
Colossians 1:14  
#8 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:22:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

Just a thought, have you a written examination scheme specifying other intervals?
Kate  
#9 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:24:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

I would be telling them "Well I need a certificate of thorough examination and if you're not giving me that, I will go to someone else who will." There is a legal requirement to retain the certificates and if the documents actually say on them they are not such certificates you can hardly claim that they are!
Invictus  
#10 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:32:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

SCHEDULE 1INFORMATION TO BE CONTAINED IN A REPORT OF A THOROUGH EXAMINATION 1. The name and address of the employer for whom the thorough examination was made. 2. The address of the premises at which the thorough examination was made. 3. Particulars sufficient to identify the lifting equipment including where known its date of manufacture. 4. The date of the last thorough examination. 5. The safe working load of the lifting equipment or (where its safe working load depends on the configuration of the lifting equipment) its safe working load for the last configuration in which it was thoroughly examined. 6. In relation to the first thorough examination of lifting equipment after installation or after assembly at a new site or in a new location— (a)that it is such thorough examination; . (b)(if such be the case) that it has been installed correctly and would be safe to operate. . 7. In relation to a thorough examination of lifting equipment other than a thorough examination to which paragraph 6 relates— (a)whether it is a thorough examination— . (i)within an interval of 6 months under regulation 9(3)(a)(i); . (ii)within an interval of 12 months under regulation 9(3)(a)(ii); . (iii)in accordance with an examination scheme under regulation 9(3)(a)(iii); or . (iv)after the occurrence of exceptional circumstances under regulation 9(3)(a)(iv); . (b)(if such be the case) that the lifting equipment would be safe to operate. . 8. In relation to every thorough examination of lifting equipment— (a)identification of any part found to have a defect which is or could become a danger to persons, and a description of the defect; . (b)particulars of any repair, renewal or alteration required to remedy a defect found to be a danger to persons; . (c)in the case of a defect which is not yet but could become a danger to persons— . (i)the time by which it could become such danger; . (ii)particulars of any repair, renewal or alteration required to remedy it; . (d)the latest date by which the next thorough examination must be carried out; . (e)where the thorough examination included testing, particulars of any test; . (f)the date of the thorough examination. . 9. The name, address and qualifications of the person making the report; that he is self-employed or, if employed, the name and address of his employer. 10. The name and address of a person signing or authenticating the report on behalf of its author. 11. The date of the report.
Alfasev  
#11 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:40:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

They may just be using their own internal terminology that is conflicting with what LOLER says. They may be using the term “thorough examination” is for more complex machines link cranes and hiab where they systematically examine the machine, looking for corrosion, hydraulic leeks, wear etc. To differentiate they may use “examination” for lifting accessories. To be fair they are significantly different with the first requiring a higher skill set.
Colossians 1:14  
#12 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:40:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

Kate wrote:
I would be telling them "Well I need a certificate of thorough examination and if you're not giving me that, I will go to someone else who will." There is a legal requirement to retain the certificates and if the documents actually say on them they are not such certificates you can hardly claim that they are!
+1
HSE_Steve  
#13 Posted : 19 October 2015 12:58:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Thanks for all the replies, I think its cemented what I thought - we cant have a situation where our 'certificates' specifically say ' this is not a ...... '. Whats confusing me is they appear to satisfy all the requirements of the thorough examination, so why would they say they weren't. I'm still waiting for their email to hopefully clarify the situation but I think I'll send one off first stating our requirements, one of which will have to be a certificate which doesn't say it isn't one, otherwise, as advised, I'll be looking elsewhere. thanks.
graemecollard  
#14 Posted : 19 October 2015 13:08:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
graemecollard

HSE_Steve wrote:
Thanks for all the replies, Whats confusing me is they appear to satisfy all the requirements of the thorough examination, so why would they say they weren't. thanks.
Because they're trying to take the coin for statutory inspections, but dodge the liability!
Invictus  
#15 Posted : 19 October 2015 14:30:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

It should just be a certificate without the it isn't taken off it needs to say it is a 'Thorough examination' on the certificate.
Invictus  
#16 Posted : 19 October 2015 14:32:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

It should read 'shouldn't' not should
alexmccreadie13  
#17 Posted : 19 October 2015 15:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
alexmccreadie13

Steve I have just checked 4 of our reputable Lifting Tackle Examiners thorough examination paperwork. Every one says Report of Thorough Examination or Periodic Report I have never in my tender years in this game seen one that doesn,t . Ta Alex
hilary  
#18 Posted : 20 October 2015 09:43:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I just got my last set out and they state that all items WERE thoroughly examined. I think you need to find an alternative supplier who does what you ask for!
HSE_Steve  
#19 Posted : 20 October 2015 10:18:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HSE_Steve

Many thanks everyone, I've sent the company an email, basically saying LOLER says they have to be thoroughly examined, your cert says they are not thoroughly examined, can you please explain. When I get a reply I'll let you all know what they say. Cheers Steve
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