Hi All,
I'm new to this forum and pretty new to health and safety.

I recently completed the online IOSH managing safely course and took on the roll as health and safety officer at the business where I have been working for, for around a year. The company itself is only three years old but has grown incredibly fast even in the short time I have been here, and unfortunately health and safety was not at the top of the company agenda!
Our company is a big online company with 8-9 distribution warehouses on one site. There is constant movement of staff, fork lift trucks, LGV's and HGV's.
I was in the process of organising vehicle / pedestrian segregation when I became aware of one member of staff driving a 10 tonne wagon into one of the warehouses, it turns out this staff member only has a car licence! I later found out that during the night shift NO ONE has a driving license, not even a basic car license yet they are shunting these wagons in, out and around the warehouses that is also occupied with FLT and other staff members getting them loaded ready for the real drivers coming in the following morning to start deliveries!

Our site is private land and owned by the business with no access to the general public, but we still have other staff at risk from unqualified / unlicensed people driving 7.5 & 10 tonne wagons around. I myself have a C class licence that I have held for around 15 years and I am struggling to believe the company seems to think this activity is fine? (because it's private land)

Where would we stand if we were visited by HSE? or if there was an accident surely the insurance wouldn't pay out? Where would we stand with the public liability?

I've searched the internet for answers and read a thread on here, all seem to contradict each other with regards to private land / general public! But what about the obvious staff danger?

If anyone could offer any advice or even point out any harsh consequences that may shock this company into help getting this dangerous activity sorted this would be much appreciated.

P.S sorry if its a bit long winded?

Rob 35 has it correctly. It is not illegal per se to drive a vehicle on private land with no training. Many here I'm sure have tales of going crazy on bikes, quad bikes or cars on farms in their youth. It IS illegal to implement a system of work that does include sufficient information, instruction, training and supervision of staff, section 2 of HASWA.

HSG 136, available on the HSE website is a good place to start with guidance on this topic if you are not already aware. The early part lays out the law and what is required of you. A good idea would be to take some of the main points from this guidance that apply to you and carry out a formal audit to see where you are short. Present this to the management team showing where the requirements come from, where you fall short and your suggestions for what needs to be done. It will then be down to the leaders of the business to decide what to do.

As an interested observer of this thread could I suggest it might be an idea to contact your company's Employee Liability Insurance provider to see what they think.

Or do others with more experience know something I don’t about the type of response that’s likely?

Graham W

If there was an accident your Liability Insurance would pay out if the firm was liable and I would suggest that if the driver has not had formal training the business would have a near impossible job of avoiding liability......I cannot think of how they could avoid it, but always appreciate some hot shot lawyer could one day come up with something which a judge may accept. However, in reality it's more about protecting people, no one likes paying for injuries sustained, because ultimately it means someone got hurt/ill and that's really a little too late.

I would suggest, as but one idea, you could come at this different ways:

General requirement of HSAWA 1974:

"(b) arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable, safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and [transport of articles and substances];"

I would suggest that transporting items without the drivers having formal training may not be considered to be safe, so far as is reasonably practicable.

Management of H&S at Work Regulations 1999:

"14.—(1) Every employee shall use any machinery, equipment, dangerous substance, transport equipment, means of production or safety device provided to him by his employer in accordance both with any training in the use of the equipment concerned which has been received by him and the instructions respecting that use which have been provided to him by the said employer in compliance with the requirements and prohibitions imposed upon that employer by or under the relevant statutory provisions."

You may wish to ask your employer what training and instructions have been given that the employee should apply. Because if none have been given then the employee has an accident the business could not really argue that the employee acted outside the training and instructions given.

Sometimes however we just know things are wrong and we don't really need to be able to use laws to know it; the drivers should be trained and supervised to a level that ensures they are competent and work safely, so far as is reasonably practicable.

Regards

The driving Licence is issued under the Road Traffic Act.

Does the Road Traffic Act apply to your site?
Private property - No
Public have access i.e. public footpath etc - Yes

Until a few years ago the Road Traffic Act did not apply to supermarket car parks but that was changed and people have been prosecuted for Section 1 offences - Causing Death By Dangerous Driving.

H&S requires the person to be competent to operate the vehicle on your premises therefore you will need to have an authorisation process in place. Some companies use disqualified drivers on their premises to shunt vehicles about as they are good drivers who got caught totting up speeding points.

Couple of things to consider.

1.
Is it private land? Can people gain access? e.g. postman, delivery vehicles, people looking for a job driving or walking in to site.

If one of those persons was injured or killed in an accident with HGV driven by untrained driver, how would a judge look at that? He'd say it was obviously not 'private' land if the person got access unchallenged as trespasser. A bit like the supermarket car park.

2.
Driving an HGV on site WITHOUT declaring to personal motor insurance provider and WITHOUT shunter training records may invalidate a driver’s insurance policy in the event of an incident and claim, therefore those drivers are encouraged to discuss this with their motor insurance providers.

A driver who withholds any relevant information from a motor insurance company may be committing insurance fraud. In the case of a driver applying for motor insurance who does not state that he occasionally drives an HGV on his works site, this would be regarded as an instance of 'misrepresentation of occupation', a non-disclosure - an incorrect statement made by a customer. Any claims related to an incident while driving an HGV would be rejected.

If the driver DOES state in his insurance application that he occasionally drives an HGV, the insurance company can ask for evidence of training.

In the event of the driver causing injury or death to a pedestrian on the works site, there would be police involvement. Without HGV reference on his insurance policy, the driver would be prosecuted for not holding correct driver’s insurance?

I'm just saying that a lawyer or judge might argue your site isn't private land, and in that case it is advisable that the drivers have shunter training.
It is then advisable that those drivers check their cover with their insurance company and get a letter saying that their activity is either covered or not applicable, a letter that can be shown to police in the event of a traffic accident.
Even if the site is private land shunting without training is not complying with the main requirement of workplace regulations i.e. Competency to do the task must be demonstrated.
And remember if you knock down and kill the postman on private land his family can try and go to court, and if you have no shunter training how good would your defence be?

Chris, no dig detected, it's a subject I have grappled with at more than one customer.
There's just so many what ifs and I just tell them that shunter training shows a wish to have competent vehicle movement on a site where there is risk of collision with other vehicle or pedestrian.
I'm not an HSE inspector but surely he would expect to see evidence of training whether it is private land or not. He'll assess if you have protected your site personnel as far as reasonably practicable?
If your driver has run someone over a judge or lawyer will expect the same.

John(txic)



John(txic),

Referring to the concerns expressed in the thread, do you provide appropriate training for unlicensed drivers in order to ensure competency and minimise traffic risks?

John(txic), OK I understand now, the matter of personal motor insurance is not an issue with your insurers

(assuming the site is actually private land)

I'm with you mjbyrne.

That is the advice I give to customers; if I didn't give them that advice then I (and an HSE inspector/investigator) would consider that I had not given them competent advice.

Plant, you're right we haven't mentioned PUWER, but one or two of us did say that a visiting HSE inspector would ask for evidence of training. In the absence of documented evidence would he say there was a breach of PUWER or HASAWA ?

Excellent news Andy. The main thing is all this has reduced the risk of injury to employees. I'm sure the drivers are happy to have had the training and understand their responsibilities on site.

Hi Rob,

No, it is a different company, a bit closer to home. Your link gave me an insight into what was needed so still helped! We are going to use this company for a few other bits of training as and when needed. So seems to have turned out well?

Thanks again Andy