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wombleflow  
#1 Posted : 29 October 2015 08:55:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wombleflow

We have been asked to attend a property to complete a site survey and complete a report. The work will require us to drill a hole into the brick mortar to enable an endoscope (?) to be fed into the cavity to identify the potential issue.
Although this is being called a site survey it could be classed as an investigation. My initial thoughts were we don't need a CPP as it is a site survey but then I thought about the hazards of drilling through a wall in a residential property and realised that there should be a method statement in place to ensure that operatives were not exposed to the potential hazards i.e. electrical cables, brick dust etc. which in turn would indicate that a CPP is needed.
What does everyone else think? Am I making this more complicated than I need to?
LATCHY  
#2 Posted : 29 October 2015 09:23:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
LATCHY

Working at Height, would the fact that you need to climb 4 steps to get into a work van be classed as working at height? comments please
wombleflow  
#3 Posted : 29 October 2015 11:03:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
wombleflow

LATCHY wrote:
Working at Height, would the fact that you need to climb 4 steps to get into a work van be classed as working at height? comments please


Latchy have you posted this incorrectly??
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 29 October 2015 11:27:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

If you have a safety method statement available to anyone with reason to ask to see it then IMO that's sufficient.
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 29 October 2015 11:30:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

LATCHY wrote:
Working at Height, would the fact that you need to climb 4 steps to get into a work van be classed as working at height? comments please


Yes.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 29 October 2015 11:46:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Wombleflow wrote:
We have been asked to attend a property to complete a site survey and complete a report. The work will require us to drill a hole into the brick mortar to enable an endoscope (?) to be fed into the cavity to identify the potential issue.
Although this is being called a site survey it could be classed as an investigation. My initial thoughts were we don't need a CPP as it is a site survey but then I thought about the hazards of drilling through a wall in a residential property and realised that there should be a method statement in place to ensure that operatives were not exposed to the potential hazards i.e. electrical cables, brick dust etc. which in turn would indicate that a CPP is needed.
What does everyone else think? Am I making this more complicated than I need to?


As soon as you put a 'spade in the ground' it no longer is a site survey but an investigation - so CDM 2015 will apply. If you are doing RA/MS than just add CPP to the title and job done.
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 29 October 2015 12:59:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

In my opinion, if you are a single contractor then answer is no.

RAMS of course but not CPP.

However if you are employing a second contractor to drill the hole then a CPP is required.

It is up to you how much time you spnd on the CPP for that small amount of work.
RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 29 October 2015 13:32:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

A CPP is required for ALL projects, regardless of whether there is more than one contractor or not.
alistair  
#9 Posted : 29 October 2015 14:30:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

I keep seeing / hearing that for small jobs, maintenance tasks, etc you can use an RA / MS and just call it your CPP.

If you look at the headings required in the CPP, an RA alone would not suffice. Perhaps a document encompassing both would work, but for smaller jobs I still do think CDM 2015 has gone completely of track and has only increased bureaucracy (not to mention that we have bot discussed the pre-construction information requirements on this forum much either!).

I can only see this being resolved in Court when we might then have something to go on. Sorry to rant but I don't think anyone from the powers above tried the guidance out in anger. Its a bit like those eejits who put up road signs or diversion signs as I bet they don't then go back and drive the route to see if they actually direct you to the right place.
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 29 October 2015 14:51:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Alistair wrote:
I keep seeing / hearing that for small jobs, maintenance tasks, etc you can use an RA / MS and just call it your CPP.

If you look at the headings required in the CPP, an RA alone would not suffice. Perhaps a document encompassing both would work, but for smaller jobs I still do think CDM 2015 has gone completely of track and has only increased bureaucracy (not to mention that we have bot discussed the pre-construction information requirements on this forum much either!).

I can only see this being resolved in Court when we might then have something to go on. Sorry to rant but I don't think anyone from the powers above tried the guidance out in anger. Its a bit like those eejits who put up road signs or diversion signs as I bet they don't then go back and drive the route to see if they actually direct you to the right place.


Agreed. Until something changes we are stuck with a poorly drafted and thought out piece of legislation - but don't hold your breath!
jay  
#11 Posted : 30 October 2015 09:16:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Unfortunately, the Temporary & Mobile Constructions Sites Directive does not have a threshold for CPP--hence required for ALL construction work--not fair to blame the drafting of the regulation.

With very minor editing, one can convert a method statement into a CPP for minor works
jay  
#12 Posted : 30 October 2015 09:22:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

There is an example of a CPP at:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf

Qcy
Colossians 1:14  
#13 Posted : 30 October 2015 10:02:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

Jay wrote:
There is an example of a CPP at:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf

Qcy


We have our engineers on one social housing refurb contract use the template (under direction from our client) for every property they enter daily.

The document itself states;

"If the job will last longer than 500 person days or 30 working days (with more than 20 people working at the same time) it will need to be notified to HSE and it is likely to be too complex for this simple plan format."

So is our contract over 500/30 days or not, rendering the CPP template US? We have been working on it for over a year now!
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 30 October 2015 14:38:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Colossians 1:14 wrote:
Jay wrote:
There is an example of a CPP at:-
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf

Qcy


We have our engineers on one social housing refurb contract use the template (under direction from our client) for every property they enter daily.

The document itself states;

"If the job will last longer than 500 person days or 30 working days (with more than 20 people working at the same time) it will need to be notified to HSE and it is likely to be too complex for this simple plan format."

So is our contract over 500/30 days or not, rendering the CPP template US? We have been working on it for over a year now!


Colossians, not sure if your post is a rhetorical question...but the principle has always been the documentation needs to be proportionate to the risk. Generally larger construction projects have a bigger risk, so a CPP designed for a multi-story building is not going to fit in a template for changing a light bulb.
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