Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
JohnW  
#1 Posted : 02 November 2015 17:52:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

I think more WAH fatalities should be manslaughter, like this one where a lost life cost the employer only £10k http://press.hse.gov.uk/...ng-through-fragile-roof/
Farrall900153  
#2 Posted : 02 November 2015 18:33:17(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Farrall900153

John, I suspect the decision was made to go for a s2 HSW prosecution rather than manslaughter because it was considered straightforward to argue that the duty of care had been breached resulting in a death. As I understand it, if the HSE had wanted to go down the manslaughter route then they would have had to hand the case over to the Crown Prosecution Service. As regards the level of fine, according to the HSE press release the accused was self-employed, so the size of the fine would probably have been a significant penalty for him.
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 02 November 2015 20:40:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I agree, a life seems all too cheap sometimes. I think it's often a fine line between a s2/3 prosecution, gross negligence manslaughter, or corporate manslaughter. That said, show me a senior manager of a MNE who has ever been prosecuted for a serious h&s offence. It's still the one-man band types who ever face justice and I fear it will always be thus. I also think where defendant is unable to pay a large fine then there should be a custodial sentence instead. £10k for sending someone to their death is a paltry amount in my opinion. Fines are subject to the person or organisation's ability to pay pursuant to CJA 2003.
JohnW  
#4 Posted : 02 November 2015 20:46:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

I find it so frustrating that their are accidents like this reported almost every week, not all fatal, the high risk just is not registering with so many roofers and odd-job contractors. We need heightened awareness and higher penalties from prosecution which would bring this to employers' attention. Two weeks ago a larger employer/builder has been fined a bit more for safety failings after an employee suffered life changing injuries when he fell through a fragile roof light: http://press.hse.gov.uk/...ll-through-fragile-roof/
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 03 November 2015 08:27:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

John I think the problem lies mainly with small builder/roofers who I know many socially. There is a perception that h&s laws do not apply to them, especially when carrying domestic work. Compounding this of course is doing it cheap. Commercial clients often do not vet their contractors and nor are they held fully accountable in my opinion. More prosecutions of clients would assist in driving up standards - cheap is not always safe.
Colossians 1:14  
#6 Posted : 03 November 2015 08:35:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Colossians 1:14

RayRapp wrote:
John I think the problem lies mainly with small builder/roofers who I know many socially. There is a perception that h&s laws do not apply to them, especially when carrying domestic work. Compounding this of course is doing it cheap. Commercial clients often do not vet their contractors and nor are they held fully accountable in my opinion. More prosecutions of clients would assist in driving up standards - cheap is not always safe.
Totally agree Ray. WAH is not taken seriously enough by many commercial clients in my experience. They will be red hot were asbestos is concerned but be very poor with WAH. What is likely to be the worst outcome a one off exposure to asbestos or a one-off slip from the edge of a roof or ladder?
westonphil  
#7 Posted : 03 November 2015 13:19:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

RayRapp wrote:
I also think where defendant is unable to pay a large fine then there should be a custodial sentence instead. £10k for sending someone to their death is a paltry amount in my opinion. Fines are subject to the person or organisation's ability to pay pursuant to CJA 2003.
I agree. I wonder how much/many of those fines actually end up getting paid. Regards
A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 03 November 2015 13:40:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Sorry to be pedantic but as this happened in Scotland it would not be manslaughter but culpable homicide. That aside the powers that be seem frightened to test the waters of what might be regarded as manslaughter/culpable homicide(both personal and corporate). This could be that any trial would be in front of a jury with all of the panoply of the law and they might be worried about the costs and any egg on face if it does not work. With actions based on HSWA they know where they are but manslaughter requires that the people responsible were truly negligent which might be difficult to prove to a jury. Personally I think they should go for it and see what happens. As more of these cases came to trial then it would become easy to establish just what constitutes the level of negligence required for a manslaughter charge.
jay  
#9 Posted : 03 November 2015 14:10:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The Sentencing Council has published a new guideline today for judges and magistrates on the sentencing of health and safety offences, corporate manslaughter and food safety and hygiene offences effective from 1st February 2016. The SHP has highlighted this as "the most dramatic change in health and safety enforcement since 1974" http://www.shponline.co....-enforcement-since-1974/ https://www.sentencingco...-safety-and-food-safety/ https://www.sentencingco...-guideline-FINAL-web.pdf
jwk  
#10 Posted : 03 November 2015 14:53:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Thanks Jay, This applies to England and Wales only, and the effective date refers to trials after that date, not to offences committed after that date. So if you are awaiting trial and have a date after the 1st of Feb the new guidelines will apply, as they almost cretainly will if you commit an offence now or at any time in the future, John
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 03 November 2015 15:46:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It was interesting to read the comments of the SHP article by a respected lawyer. His main concerns were that more people would receive custodial sentences for h&s offences - not an issue with most practitioners I'm sure; and the risk rather than the outcome of an incident would become the focus. Again, I am all in favour of the risk being a major factor as the outcome is often down to good/bad fortune, whereas the risk is all too apparent and as a rule constant. If the new guidelines are applied sensibly I think it will increase prosecutions and level of penalties, both custodial and pecuniary. Hopefully raising awareness whilst sending out a much needed message - those who offend will pay.
jwk  
#12 Posted : 03 November 2015 15:59:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Our local branch seminar was all about this. The lawyer who did the presentation suggested that the guidelines would lead to more defended trials. There will be less incentive to post an early guilty plea if that might result in a seven or even eight figure fine. Interesting point of view, John
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.