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peter gotch  
#1 Posted : 24 November 2015 13:27:29(UTC)
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peter gotch

RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 24 November 2015 13:43:29(UTC)
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RayRapp

Peter

Thanks a very interesting and well written article. I have always been a sceptic of those who claim they have the best safety records or systems - you're only as good as your last or next major incident. Covering up LTIs and manipulating AFR/IFRs is very tempting when your reputation is on the line. Measuring performance and aligning it with current practices is fraught with difficulties. The tendency is to 'measure what is easy to measure as opposed to what should be measured'.

David Bannister  
#3 Posted : 24 November 2015 13:58:29(UTC)
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David Bannister

Agree. It also takes a sideswipe at those who insist that safety is mostly behaviour based and focus obsessively on near-misses.

I've long been a sceptic of USA claims of super-safety ever since I did several pieces of work with some Fortune 500 companies and saw some things that horrified me but were accepted by my American colleagues as not being in contravention of the relevant OSHA Codes.

Time to re-evaluate some behavioural safety smoke & mirrors?
peter gotch  
#4 Posted : 24 November 2015 14:10:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Part of the problem is the Heinrich/Bird triangle.

Assumes a directly linear relationship from the top to the bottom of the triangle, but……

Some minor incidents are not precursors of a fatality

BST (2011) analysed incidents at six multinationals and estimate only 20% of less serious injuries are precursors of Serious Injuries and Fatalities (SIFs).

Common bias towards dealing unsafe behaviour rather than unsafe conditions.

Heinrich – “Selection of remedies is based on practical cause analysis that stops at the selection of the first proximate and most easily prevented cause” (usually human error). Heinrich 88% down to unsafe behaviour, DuPont upped this to 96%.

BST - Selection of measures to address unsafe behaviour may result in greater reduction in minor injuries than reduction in SIFs.

Recordable injury rates in North America and Europe have steadily declined in last decade and longer, but fatality rates have levelled off or reduced by less.

Ditto - tend to put a veil over the risks that could result in low probability, high consequence events or the management of occupational health risks.

BST -Causes and correlates of SIFs are often different to those of less serious injuries.

and almost all accidents are multi-causal……

Study of 92,000 accidents in Pennsylvania in 1953 (with similar findings in 1960 follow up)

Over 90% of both fatal AND non-fatal accidents linked to both unsafe behaviour AND unsafe conditions.


jay  
#5 Posted : 24 November 2015 14:18:04(UTC)
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jay

On reading the whole article, the author states that :-

In written testimony last year to a joint meeting of two U.S. Senate committees, the Chemical Safety Board chairman Rafael Moure-Eraso summed it up well: "If it can happen at DuPont, I would submit it can happen anywhere." That is the real lesson to be learned here.

The problems that beset DuPont are threefold and affect every company. First is the basic belief system upon which many safety programs are founded, is simply not correct. The belief that by focussing on preventing near misses and near hits we can prevent serious incidents is simply not true at all. The pyramid brought about by HW Heinrich and later modified by Bird and Germain were meant to represent a concept and relationship. The claim that preventing near misses reduces the number of incidents or their severity has faded over time but it is still deeply rooted in the safety profession.


We are a 50:50 joint venture between ExxonMobil & Shell and use ExxonMobil's Operations Integrity Management System as the HSE Management System that includes behavioural safety--but our performance indicators are not restricted to Personal Safety--there are also other leading process safety indicators. There is a "just" safety culture i.e. if one disregards safety rules, there will be an intervention based upon the nature of the violation.

However, it is true that more often than not, the excessive focus on personal safety can lead to OTT actions.

Interestingly, Du Pont also has sells Process Safety Management Products--but appears not to use it effectively for itself!

http://www.dupont.co.uk/...nal-risk-consulting.html
walker  
#6 Posted : 24 November 2015 14:34:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I was exposed to Dupont some 20 years ago and made my mind up then it was a myth created by PR.
Ditto BP say about 10 years ago.
All big companies are big on words but less good at actions, simply because middle managers tell their bosses what they want to hear.

Regarding "Triangles" under various names, it was clear to anyone with a smattering of statistics knowledge that they were dodgy. Actually their authors pretty much said so.
That did not stop people, who could not be bothered to think about accident causation, hijacking them.

"Proper" behavioral safety is very important in accident prevention IMHO.
But again we have managers who see it as a "blame the workers" get out of jail card.
RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 24 November 2015 15:03:51(UTC)
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RayRapp

I have often said that Heinrich/Bird pyramid has probably done more harm than good. People like to latch on to soundbite or pictorial. The fact remains the pyramid is allegorical - nothing more, nothing.
jay  
#8 Posted : 24 November 2015 16:14:27(UTC)
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jay

Interesting short video on Heinrich's Principle (& triangle) by Prof Tim Marsh.




Colossians 1:14  
#9 Posted : 25 November 2015 11:38:03(UTC)
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Colossians 1:14

walker wrote:
I was exposed to Dupont some 20 years ago and made my mind up then it was a myth created by PR.
Ditto BP say about 10 years ago.
All big companies are big on words but less good at actions, simply because middle managers tell their bosses what they want to hear.


Absolutely spot on!
martin1  
#10 Posted : 25 November 2015 16:53:46(UTC)
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martin1

I worked for ExxonMobil here and in Europe during the 90's. They used Dupont STOP at first and then moved to the Loss Prevention System. Both added real value but needed careful use.

However, these were not the only tools they used. They also used Taproot for root cause analysis and had a well developed safety management system ( the OIMS mentioned earlier by Jay).

Can't talk for BP or for what Exxon are like now but in my time Exxon were very serious and very pro-active on the safety front. I have been to a lot of places since and not seen anything as good.

The fall of Dupont from safety leader to also ran would make an interesting book.



Merv  
#11 Posted : 25 November 2015 18:06:25(UTC)
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Merv

I worked as a DuPont plant hse manger for many years and, honestly, had good results. Later, I moved to the "safety solutions" group: selling and implementing DuPont safety management systems. And they worked. (note the word "management") There was heavy emphasis on management responsibility. One of my major themes was to insist that, in any incident investigation, "management error" was included among the categories of possible causes investigated

I was also supposed to "sell" the stop STOP programmers. Fortunately I never did.

Happy days.

Merv
pete48  
#12 Posted : 25 November 2015 22:03:10(UTC)
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pete48

I am another old oil man (BP mostly and some time with Exxon). I remember the flirtations with OIMS in Exxon and ISRS (the Bird based system) in BP from the mid 80's to mid 90's. I think I probably went to at least one of Mervs, or his colleagues, presentations as we looked over the fence to see if there was anything to learn from Dupont. (and yes there was back then)

The big difference that I saw happening during that time was the dumbing down and reduction of technical management and more reliance on systems and audits for what we now call governance.

In my opinion, for both the OIMS and ISRS systems, the focus on activity at the coal face was much less signficant than engineering and management design. I still remember the 'people, equipment, materials, environment' base for those systems. However, as 'managers' and 'finance' got their hands on them and the technical input waned then they focused more and more on the 'easy to get' achievements.

It is oh so easy to confuse activity with accomplishment and outcomes and in the wrong hands these sytems inevitably lead to focus on the minor and mundane at the expense of looking at the overall picture.

Human error amongst senior staff through not understanding/following/updating or properly modifying their own procedures and protocols is just as common as those errors lower down the order. Put that with the fact that we know that poor management equals poor OSH in the workplace and it follows that any system can only be as good as those using and/or managing it.

These systems can and do bring success and improvement. But they all take on-going hard work and being open to change at all levels in the organisation. And that is the hardest thing of all to achieve and then maintain over a long period.

No system is the golden nugget of guaranteed success. That is the fundamental error that can be made when using these systems. Many of the large petrochem companies have found that out to their cost in the 21st century.
andybz  
#13 Posted : 26 November 2015 07:58:35(UTC)
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andybz

I don't think you can take one accident (no matter how tragic) at a multi-national company as a sign that its whole system has failed. DuPont handles very hazardous materials, which means there is always risk. And no matter how well managed, the risk is never zero.

However, I do think this accident does highlight a very important message. DuPont's well-known good record is entirely based on personal safety performance. It has been said for a long time that there is no evidence to say that their management of process safety is any better than anyone else's. In fact, the concern is that behavioural safety programs (including DuPont's STOP and all the other programs often discussed on this forum) can result in process safety being overlooked.

There is a good video about this accident on the CSB website at http://www.csb.gov/dupon...toxic-chemical-release-/
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 26 November 2015 08:43:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I would generally agree that one major accident in itself is not a true reflection of an organisation's health and safety capability, at least until I read the investigation report (all 400 pages!) into BP's Deep Water Horizon (Gulf of Mexico) oil spill disaster.

The report identified systemic failures at every level within the organisation, multiple latent and active failures on the day. Having had an identical near miss some months before it could be strongly argued the Gulf spill was an event waiting to happen.
Ian Bell2  
#15 Posted : 26 November 2015 09:10:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I long ago concluded that American companies / the US system of safety of regulation had little to teach us in Europe about safety management.

As for Birds triangle etc, the statistics and reasoning always seemed dubious at best - so we have all been taught nonsense for years.

As I work in the oil/gas industry I go to quite a few COMAH sites in the UK - often seeing nonsense statistics about working days without accidents etc at the entrance gate etc etc - yet when fundamental issues about plant design and operation are pointed out, solutions are ignored or swept under the carpet because of difficulty of implementing solutions i.e. cost.

Wasn't one of the findings of the BP Texaco refinery accident (15 killed) that BP's safety indicators were things like counting the wearing of hard hats by workers etc - relatively minor safety indicators.

Yet they missed the obvious problem of positioning the site porta-cabins too close to the process plant, so if something did go wrong, people were in the blast area.
pete48  
#16 Posted : 26 November 2015 10:20:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Quote IanBell.
"yet when fundamental issues about plant design and operation are pointed out, solutions are ignored or swept under the carpet because of difficulty of implementing solutions i.e. cost."

Exactly the same issue as 25 years ago. Makes you think doesn't it?
A Kurdziel  
#17 Posted : 26 November 2015 12:02:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This has been my bugbear about Heinrich/Bird pyramid since it was explained to me years ago. I have had arguments with various proponents (including Tim Marsh!) about it. What most people understand by it is that there is direct causal link between serious accidents: lost time accidents: near misses (if you want to call them that) and I have seen presentations which say that this means that a near miss can potentially be a serious accident and should dealt with using behavioural safety methods. I never bought his. Most near misses are near minor incidents. Big incidents are usually more complicated and require multiple failures (Reason’s Swiss Cheese model). Making sure that everyone holds onto the handrail will not prevent incidents like the one at DuPont last year. That might create a more positive safety culture but only if the whole organisation buys into safety, not just the frontline workers but also those that plan overall working practices. One thing that has always intrigued me is big accidents (Buncefield, Flixbourogh, Three Mile Island etc) seem to happened either at night or at the weekend when the fully trained engineering staff are not about and junior technical staff are in charge. Could this be seen as a way of saving costs by not paying engineers for unsocial hours? If that sort of attitude changes then perhaps we will have real behavioural change, from the top down.
Ian Bell2  
#18 Posted : 26 November 2015 12:17:12(UTC)
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Ian Bell2

I think Bird's Triangle and the nonsense of behavioural safety etc - hold the hand rail, wear your hat etc are much too simplistic, when considering major accidents.

But to question such h&s dogma such as these theories has been akin to the Spanish Inquisition and heresy in the sometimes small minded world of occupational h&s.
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