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DAG2  
#1 Posted : 07 December 2015 15:57:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DAG2

Hello, With winter here, our attention has turned to our office staff's methods of heating their feet under their desks throughout the day (our office has a poor heating system, blowing hot air down from the roof at various points, not very effective at the floor/feet level). The habit seems to be for their manager to purchase a blow fan heater; it's quick, cheap and not 'practically' hot to the touch (it warns folks putting feet too close by virtue of the proximity of the hot air). We are nervous about these, however; if left on overnight they could be a fire risk. Would appreciate any advice on alternative heaters to hot blow fan heaters please? Or systems of work to provide confident controls on heater use. Any safer alternatives would be appreciated but am minded that oil filled heaters could be very hot to the touch if turned to high and inadvertently touched, so these may present other dangers. Am willing to look at timed heaters (e.g. turn the knob for a 1/2 hour of heat but then switches off) but I don't see these anywhere online. We've recommended banning heaters but complaints arise continually of cold feet! Any experience that anyone may have here would be appreciated.
johnmurray  
#2 Posted : 07 December 2015 17:09:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Thicker socks. Thermal underwear. Draught excluders.
mssy  
#3 Posted : 07 December 2015 18:07:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Due to an absolute requirement to avoid business interruption, our fire policy goes a little further than it might if it were for life safety only and involves effectively 'banning' any heater which has a filament or element type heating mechanism, plus any heating device which has a timer that allows it to switch on at a preset time. Both of these restrictions apply to portable heating, even if fixed to a wall or similar bulkhead. We try to keep the ambient temperature controlled using the building's heating system, but where variations occur (or due to the particular needs of individual members of staff) we do allow oil filled type radiators such as this one. Timers are permitted on this low ignition risk appliance http://www.screwfix.com/...8RrURttO6h8pkaAj9I8P8HAQ
DAG2  
#4 Posted : 08 December 2015 08:19:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DAG2

Thank you for the replies. Yes, the two replies represent the discussion well - a complete ban or a ban with allowance for some qualified specific individual's needs (and approved equipment). Thank you.
Invictus  
#5 Posted : 08 December 2015 08:54:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Makes me laugh, oil filled heaters may be hot to touch what other reason would you buy them for if they didn't get hot? It's like putting a label on a kettle saying may contain boiling water, if you only want cold water use the tap. Health and Safety Laughable!
Graham  
#6 Posted : 08 December 2015 09:22:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

Invictus wrote:
Makes me laugh, oil filled heaters may be hot to touch what other reason would you buy them for if they didn't get hot? It's like putting a label on a kettle saying may contain boiling water, if you only want cold water use the tap. Health and Safety Laughable!
Not so much laughable it's more we're overly worried about the threat of litigation - well that's how it feels to me. I'm not sure how realistic that fear is though. It's a real shame that it seems to get in the way of sensible solutions though.
Invictus  
#7 Posted : 08 December 2015 09:44:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Graham wrote:
Invictus wrote:
Makes me laugh, oil filled heaters may be hot to touch what other reason would you buy them for if they didn't get hot? It's like putting a label on a kettle saying may contain boiling water, if you only want cold water use the tap. Health and Safety Laughable!
Not so much laughable it's more we're overly worried about the threat of litigation - well that's how it feels to me. I'm not sure how realistic that fear is though. It's a real shame that it seems to get in the way of sensible solutions though.
Maybe your right!
douglas.dick  
#8 Posted : 08 December 2015 13:40:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
douglas.dick

You can get heated mats/rugs, that may be more practical solutions
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 08 December 2015 13:43:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Or you could go straight out and buy a bigger coal scuttle, before you cross another 'T' or dot another 'I'
Andrew W Walker  
#10 Posted : 08 December 2015 13:58:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Invictus wrote:
Or you could go straight out and buy a bigger coal scuttle, before you cross another 'T' or dot another 'I'
'Coal scuttle' Not heard one of them mentioned for ages. Made me laugh Andy
Invictus  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2015 13:59:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

It's a line from Scrooge, when Bob comes in late on Boxing day.
Andrew W Walker  
#12 Posted : 08 December 2015 14:02:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

I remember my folks having one.
IanDakin  
#13 Posted : 10 December 2015 09:26:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

I worked in a company where H&S (of which I was a team member) banned fan heaters and confiscated them. We had a policy of only using oil filled radiators. This was to stop fires. The result was: 1. Fire from burnt out wiring as the oil filled radiators were a higher wattage that fan heaters. 2. Fire from an oil filled radiator that had the feet fitted on the top and therefore was used upside down making it catch on fire. Ooops. No such ban where I work now.
Invictus  
#14 Posted : 10 December 2015 09:30:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I remember when people got on with it and I didn't start work until after 74.
hilary  
#15 Posted : 10 December 2015 10:16:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I have a coal scuttle which I bought at a canal boat shop last year. Black with lovely flowers on it and I use it as a waste paper bin in my living room (it's never been used as a coal scuttle obviously). But I digress .... What about investing in destratification fans for the office that sit in the ceiling. They are automatic so when the hot air gets to a certain temperature at ceiling height they switch on and push all the hot air down again to recirculate it. You would find this a lot more effective and you would save on your energy bills as well as you would need less "original" hot air in the first place.
A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 10 December 2015 14:16:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

We had the same issue in our large open plan offices. The heating system ran around the edges of the room and people in the middle would often complain of being cold while those around the edges would complain of being too hot. My first suggestion was to suggest that those tropical flowers who needed the heat should move to the edges of the room while the polar bears move to the middle. Unfortunately, the various team leaders did not like this as it would involve splitting up their teams so they could not keep a beady eye on them. As an organisation we did not like hot air heaters they not only did those pose a fire risk, they were also not very energy efficient. After years of moaning I concluded there was no solution that would please everyone, but at this time of the year it always came up as an issue. I was still in short trousers in ‘74 but there has been a change in office culture sine the olden days. Firstly, more open plan large offices where it is more difficult to reregulate the temperate (thermal comfort) for everybody. Secondly, people, I am convinced spend more time at the desks and so move around less: everything is done from the computer so less going off to do filing or photocopying or even printing off documents. Finally, people wear and expect to wear fewer clothes. We all dress like we are on holiday in Majorca rather than in the UK in winter. Many people don’t have proper winter coat, and move straight from car to office just in their indoor clothes. Men don’t wear jackets at their desk any more, ladies don’t wear cardies. Ultimately I think this issue is intractable..so sorry can’t say any more.
MarkMan  
#17 Posted : 03 May 2016 14:57:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
MarkMan

All, Fan heaters do cause fires. See, for example, : http://www.london-fire.g...heaters.asp#.VyiI9vkrLcs And oil-filled heaters are safer than fan heaters, at least according to the HSE because they allow them in zoned areas as per the ACOP associated with the Explosives Regulations 2014 ( http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l150.pdf ) “119 Heating devices with exposed elements such as electric fan heaters and gas-powered or other similar convection heaters should not be used in explosives areas. Oil- or water-filled electrically powered portable radiators can be used where fixed heating systems that use, for example, hot water or steam are not available.” This last point demonstrates the greater safety of oil-filled over fan electric heaters and a full riposte to the decriers of "health and safety gone mad" earlier in this post. And this is not simply a response to concerns over litigation. The first step in any risk assessment is application of the Hierarchy of Control, and the first element of the Hierarchy of Control is "can the hazard be eliminated?". The answer in this case is "yes, replace fan heaters with oil-filled heaters". So this is the only solution for any respectable health and safety professional to advise IMHO.
awardle  
#18 Posted : 03 May 2016 15:22:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
awardle

Hi All, Excellentpost from MarkMan, use of fan heaters is prohibited in my workplace as the fan can seize causing the casing to overheat and catch fire. As stated oil filled rads are a safer alternative.
mssy  
#19 Posted : 03 May 2016 18:07:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

There's a simple test: Throw an upright and switched on fan heater under a duvet on a bed and see what happens (I attended a fire where recent immigrants from India tried to warm their Grandma's bed up - it worked and some!!) Throw an upright and switched on oil filled rad under the same bedding & see wot happens. (The advice is for illustration purposed only :)
firesafety101  
#20 Posted : 03 May 2016 18:50:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

My father in law's oil filled radiator went on fire a few weeks ago, I think it was an electrical fault. My daughter was recently in hospital and I lent her my lap top so she could play her PC game. The charging cable started sparking and smelling of burning plastic. The cable had been pulled out of its housing and shorted out. Nothing is safe these days.
stonecold  
#21 Posted : 05 May 2016 10:40:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Regardless of the silly comments saying safety gone mad, the truth is if you have lots of additional electrical appliances in your workplace the risk of fire will increase. We have just removed about 30 of these under the desk fan heater things from one of our large London offices. Most of them were the very cheap and cheerful made in china type. Lets not forget one of the biggest causes of workplace fire is faulty electrical appliances and leads.
bob youel  
#22 Posted : 05 May 2016 12:54:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

The biggest problem is that designers & their clients + some H& safety bods are only interested in BREAM and similar as they get 'gongs' for that type of thing and employees are second at best and I find it disturbing that some H&S bods seem to have a poor opinion of the employees around them especially so as it's not good working where it is too cold/hot etc. Yes we have changed working habits since 1000BC but professionals are supposed to manage that change and come up with heating solutions that are suitable for modern society in open plan offices* [which is easy in 2016- but they may cost money and environmental 'ticks in the box' may decrease] My advice is try to get suitable heating etc. to all those that need it and to educate designers, clients + employees to adequately allow for different weather conditions *[O Plan O's are not as business effective, in my studied view, as many claim but they are cheap!]
Invictus  
#23 Posted : 05 May 2016 13:46:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

LOng John's!
paul.skyrme  
#24 Posted : 05 May 2016 19:28:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

stonecold wrote:
Regardless of the silly comments saying safety gone mad, the truth is if you have lots of additional electrical appliances in your workplace the risk of fire will increase. We have just removed about 30 of these under the desk fan heater things from one of our large London offices. Most of them were the very cheap and cheerful made in china type. Lets not forget one of the biggest causes of workplace fire is faulty electrical appliances and leads.
Ahh, now cheap & cheerful made in China. Presumably CE marked, and compliant with the LVD, so why is this an issue? :) IF CE marked, then the heaters must comply with all relevant EN standards to bear the CE mark, thus they will be just as safe as a heater made anywhere else in the world, including say Germany or the UK. Is there a possibility that they may not be? I don't know, but, if they bear the CE mark then they comply with the minimum standards, or should/ This is a bone of contention I suspect for many British & EU manufacturers, and is part of the reason for the demise of UK & EU manufacturing at the expense of the Far East. We all it seems want to buy cheap, and don't care if the stuff "actually" complies, as long as it bears the mark. SO, I would beg ALL of those who can influence safe buying, that you get competent people to look at the quality and safety of the electrical goods your employers purchase and buy them based on quality & safety as well as price, instead of just buying the cheapest thing that your organisation can find.
stevie40  
#25 Posted : 05 May 2016 21:12:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevie40

Paul, that is one of my favourite bugbears as well. So, I fired up the RAPEX rapid alert system. Filters applied:- All years UK notified Electrical Appliances Fire risk Search term "heater". 14 hits returned. Top of the list was a Dyson. The remainder are the usual cheapo suspects from some blue chip retailers. Love RAPEX. http://ec.europa.eu/cons...ain.search#searchResults
stonecold  
#26 Posted : 06 May 2016 05:50:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

paul.skyrme wrote:
stonecold wrote:
Regardless of the silly comments saying safety gone mad, the truth is if you have lots of additional electrical appliances in your workplace the risk of fire will increase. We have just removed about 30 of these under the desk fan heater things from one of our large London offices. Most of them were the very cheap and cheerful made in china type. Lets not forget one of the biggest causes of workplace fire is faulty electrical appliances and leads.
Ahh, now cheap & cheerful made in China. Presumably CE marked, and compliant with the LVD, so why is this an issue? :) IF CE marked, then the heaters must comply with all relevant EN standards to bear the CE mark, thus they will be just as safe as a heater made anywhere else in the world, including say Germany or the UK. Is there a possibility that they may not be? I don't know, but, if they bear the CE mark then they comply with the minimum standards, or should/ This is a bone of contention I suspect for many British & EU manufacturers, and is part of the reason for the demise of UK & EU manufacturing at the expense of the Far East. We all it seems want to buy cheap, and don't care if the stuff "actually" complies, as long as it bears the mark. SO, I would beg ALL of those who can influence safe buying, that you get competent people to look at the quality and safety of the electrical goods your employers purchase and buy them based on quality & safety as well as price, instead of just buying the cheapest thing that your organisation can find.
Good point made there by Paul, as a long time reader of this forum I know that he knows his stuff when it comes to electrical safety. The way my brain works is if we purchase something that is cheap (even though it may be CE marked) e.g an £8 fan heater, I would expect it to be more likely to eventually fail or develop a fault than one that cost say £40. Cheap parts, cheaply made etc is not something that I would ever personally consider using. Again im not saying all cheap items are dangerous, but it terms of the level of risk I would always stay away. Obviously on the other hand I do appreciate some of the more expensive items are probably identical to the cheap ones apart from a brand name lol
IanDakin  
#27 Posted : 06 May 2016 12:27:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

If you allowed dogs in the office, then they could lay on peoples cold feet and keep them warm! Just a thought.
Invictus  
#28 Posted : 06 May 2016 12:56:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

IanDakin wrote:
If you allowed dogs in the office, then they could lay on peoples cold feet and keep them warm! Just a thought.
I think they should be becuse they are brilliant and everyone loves a dog and it liven the day up no end. I once worked were they allowed a blind dog in but it kept bumping into the wall.
WatsonD  
#29 Posted : 09 May 2016 08:18:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Invictus wrote:
IanDakin wrote:
If you allowed dogs in the office, then they could lay on peoples cold feet and keep them warm! Just a thought.
I think they should be becuse they are brilliant and everyone loves a dog and it liven the day up no end. I once worked were they allowed a blind dog in but it kept bumping into the wall.
And how about those people who are allergic to dogs?
Invictus  
#30 Posted : 09 May 2016 08:45:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

WatsonD wrote:
Invictus wrote:
IanDakin wrote:
If you allowed dogs in the office, then they could lay on peoples cold feet and keep them warm! Just a thought.
I think they should be becuse they are brilliant and everyone loves a dog and it liven the day up no end. I once worked were they allowed a blind dog in but it kept bumping into the wall.
And how about those people who are allergic to dogs?
I think Ian was making reference to a posting a few months back regarding animals at work.
kevkel  
#31 Posted : 09 May 2016 08:47:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
kevkel

The point with regards fire risk from fan type heaters is well made. We insist on oil filled radiators where required. We should also consider the hygiene element of fan heaters. The tend to recycle dust and dander back into the room and into your breathing zone. Ugh!
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