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GMCGHEE  
#1 Posted : 31 December 2015 14:36:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
GMCGHEE

Hello, Has anyone come across anyone using a permit to work system on CNC Machines to bypass guarding so specific operations can be carried out like threading or achieving acquired finishes on metal components? The reason I ask is we have had a new start in management, that has come from a major worldwide company in the manufacturing and production of oil and gas, and I am astonished, that he said they used to do this at his last place of work. I have already been involved with dealing with prohibition notices from the HSE on the matter, and the thought of using the permit to work system is not going to happen, as I am well aware of the regulations, but I am just putting it out there to see if anyone else has been in this situation?
Ian Bell2  
#2 Posted : 01 January 2016 00:48:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Nope. I think you would come seriously unstuck, in the event of an accident. Follow Reg 11 of PUWER. You can see the newspaper headline now....
paul.skyrme  
#3 Posted : 01 January 2016 21:32:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Exactly as per Ian. if you can't do the jobs you need to on your CNC machines in full, then either your people are inadequate to do the set up's, thus require further training on the machines you have and how to set them up/program them or the machines are inadequate for the jobs. No reason whatsoever to be bypassing guarding interlocks on CNC machines to do "threading" the machine should be doing that itself, and as far as surface finish goes, if the machine can't hit the Ra you want, then look to setup, tooling rigidity, spindle bearings, turret bearings, clamping & mounting, (if it's a turret lathe), tooling, being right for the material and the application, correct speeds & feeds etc. If you can hold the dimensional tolerances then you should be able to hold the Ra tolerances.
westonphil  
#4 Posted : 05 January 2016 18:00:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

GMCGHEE wrote:
The reason I ask is we have had a new start in management, that has come from a major worldwide company in the manufacturing and production of oil and gas, and I am astonished, that he said they used to do this at his last place of work.
Put the 'manager' through some H&S training so they don't bring any other unsafe practices into the workplace! Let's also hope someone makes the correction at the other place before some decent employee has a serious accident. Regards
stillp  
#5 Posted : 06 January 2016 15:03:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stillp

This practice could be tolerable, provided the machine in question has a reduced speed/power mode specifically designed for the purpose.
paul.skyrme  
#6 Posted : 07 January 2016 17:15:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

I'm not so sure stillp. I understand the low speed/power modes, but, to be actually threading by hand, suggests use of a tap or die, "really" this was never even acceptable in a manual lathe, even though we did it. In a CNC, I'm not convinced that a low power mode would make it safe to have your hands and arms in the work area when the machine was operating. Acquiring finishes, sounds like using emery cloth on a lathe, again dubious, and hard to do safely, not impossible, but hard, and hazardous. Moving machines around with guards open, in low speed/power to check out programmes, like you would do to ensure you avoid clash points and like using a robot teach pendant, yes, but I'm not sure about operators leaning into the machine operating area. You would need some pretty robust procedures and practices to prevent things going wrong. Take a CNC turret lathe. You'd probably be in MDI mode, to get the spindle running, now to start, stop and reverse the spindle to use a manual threading tool takes some doing in MDI, the M codes are 3 characters to type, yes you can issue a spindle stop (M05) command more quickly probably via a spindle stop button. The thing is you would have to be in the operating zone with one hand holding the threading tool, and looking out at the control panel to enter the start command etc. It’s physically awkward, and easy to get wrong, please, don’t ask why I know!!! I do still have all my digits and no I’ve not been tangled in one. IMHO it’s fraught with the opportunity for things to go wrong, and if you type M06 rather than M03 then you could instigate a tool change by mistake, with your hand and arm in the operating zone. Look at the 3 & 6 on a numeric keypad. One of the reasons I’m a bit sensitive to this is I know a guy that got caught up in one a lapse in concentration and he nearly lost his hand 6m off work and several surgeries. To cap it off, he was a service engineer for the machine tool manufacturer, the reason it happened is he was so experienced, he knew what the fault was as soon as he looked at the machine, the guards were open, so he stuck his hand in and moved a part, the machine was so fast, it did a tool change and came in and smashed his hand up before he could remove it.
Ian Bell2  
#7 Posted : 07 January 2016 17:35:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I guess it depends on how 'specifically' designed you mean. 'This practice could be tolerable, provided the machine in question has a reduced speed/power mode specifically designed for the purpose.' A cobbled together safety by pass, is a definite 'NO'. Paul is correct. People really need to fully understand Reg 11 of PUWER and the guarding hierarchy and the legal definition of 'practicable' rather than 'reasonably practicable' which applies to most situations. Machinery guarding is a more restrictive legal requirement.
stillp  
#8 Posted : 07 January 2016 22:08:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stillp

Ian Bell2 wrote:
I guess it depends on how 'specifically' designed you mean.
Yes, I meant 'specifically designed' by the machine manufacturer, in accordance with all the relevant ENs. Certainly no bypassing interlocks by the user. Having said that, where I've seen machines with such modes, they are for setting-up rather than for operations like threading or polishing. I posted because some harmonised standards specifically mention reduced speed/power modes that allow the temporary suspension of some safeguards.
GMCGHEE  
#9 Posted : 09 January 2016 16:02:49(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
GMCGHEE

Thanks for the feedback gents. I am well aware of regulation 11 of the PUWER Regs, not to mention section 2 of the HSWA, but I posted to see if anyone else has been in a similar situation. I don't come from a CNC Machine background and some off your feedback has been very encouraging. My job is compliance and having to tell someone who's been doing the job for 30 to 40 years can be a very challenging situation, but I can more than hold my own. I suppose I was in disbelieve that a new manager has come in from a major player in Oil & Gas, who might I add seem to have a unlimited H&S resources and a huge number of HSE staff worldwide, and said they used to practice the permit to work system for removing guards. (Don't get me wrong it maybe have only been this 1 site which has been closed but I couldn't believe it) I am a new user to the forum but I think this good be a great tool for the future. Thanks again.
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