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In an earlier post it was discussed if we should show people the error of their ways, if they are breaching H&S if they don't work for us:
I was coming back with my lunch (sausage and egg on toast) and over the road I could see a worker cutting concrete slabs, with no eye protection or face mask.
I am in kensington Liverpool, if I was in London I would expect a response like 'cor blimey gov, fanks, I'll shoot up the apple and pears and get some out the Old Mother Hubbard'
Her they would either ask if you had some gear or threaten to cut you a new one!
The moral question is what would you do? Eat your lunch hot or go over and tell them. It's over to you!
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Invictus wrote:In an earlier post it was discussed if we should show people the error of their ways, if they are breaching H&S if they don't work for us:
I was coming back with my lunch (sausage and egg on toast) and over the road I could see a worker cutting concrete slabs, with no eye protection or face mask.
I am in kensington Liverpool, if I was in London I would expect a response like 'cor blimey gov, fanks, I'll shoot up the apple and pears and get some out the Old Mother Hubbard'
Her they would either ask if you had some gear or threaten to cut you a new one!
The moral question is what would you do? Eat your lunch hot or go over and tell them. It's over to you!
I take it you havnt spent a lot of time in London then ?
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paulw71 wrote:Invictus wrote:In an earlier post it was discussed if we should show people the error of their ways, if they are breaching H&S if they don't work for us:
I was coming back with my lunch (sausage and egg on toast) and over the road I could see a worker cutting concrete slabs, with no eye protection or face mask.
I am in kensington Liverpool, if I was in London I would expect a response like 'cor blimey gov, fanks, I'll shoot up the apple and pears and get some out the Old Mother Hubbard'
Her they would either ask if you had some gear or threaten to cut you a new one!
The moral question is what would you do? Eat your lunch hot or go over and tell them. It's over to you!
I take it you havnt spent a lot of time in London then ? None, but it was all I could think of, sorry! I know there all basically the same but didn't want it to be to serious. and I was talking Kenisinton in London
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Invictus wrote:paulw71 wrote:Invictus wrote:In an earlier post it was discussed if we should show people the error of their ways, if they are breaching H&S if they don't work for us:
I was coming back with my lunch (sausage and egg on toast) and over the road I could see a worker cutting concrete slabs, with no eye protection or face mask.
I am in kensington Liverpool, if I was in London I would expect a response like 'cor blimey gov, fanks, I'll shoot up the apple and pears and get some out the Old Mother Hubbard'
Her they would either ask if you had some gear or threaten to cut you a new one!
The moral question is what would you do? Eat your lunch hot or go over and tell them. It's over to you!
I take it you havnt spent a lot of time in London then ? None, but it was all I could think of, sorry! I know there all basically the same but didn't want it to be to serious. and I was talking Kenisinton in London Thats ok. In answer to your question I would eat my lunch hot. At the prices down here I wouldnt let it get cold.
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The prices here are ok but if you let it go cold you can taste it's gone off.
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It's a moral dilemma. I think that if I had any contact with the person whatsoever - if they were working next door or outside my house or somewhere I had seen them more than once, then I would say to them. If they were just a random stranger I would probably not do so because you never know what reaction you will get and, at heart, I'm just a chicken.
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Worker in street close to members of the public, obviously no concern for his own safety so safe to assume not too concerned about others safety, it is clear that as a member of IOSH you have a professional and moral duty to report. In the scenario you gave I would have contacted the relevant Local Authority. Have I personally done this, yes in the past when I witnessed builders changing an upstairs window by throwing the old window frame out into the street below.
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No dilemma here, just walk straight past and leave them to it. If they want to work like that then that is their choice. I would feel no responsibility to tell them otherwise.
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I would bustle over to them, tell them I was a H & S professional and order them to don the appropriate PPE. Then I would take lots of pictures, then go home and find lots of people to report him to. Then I might come onto this site and boast about reporting him.
Actually, no I wouldn't as I have no authority over what he is doing. If it was a situation where there was a public risk, I may consider the LA or the HSE, but only if it was something really dangerous.
If I was a card carrying enforcer, that would be different, but I'm not.
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I think I would have gone for bacon and egg, not sausage.
Sometime you can go out and about and see so many people working unsafely it would take days to report them all (especially people working at height). Generally it is none of our business. The problem then comes if you noticed someone and did nothing then heard of a fatality due to falling from height etc would you feel bad ?
As far as I could see there is nothing in IOSH code of conduct that compels you to police other company's. Most of us have enough problems with our own company's.
Thinking about it possibly Sausage , Bacon and Egg
Chris
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I note you don't mention sauce, this would possibly be another aspect to consider.
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Why not go the whole hog and add mushrooms, tomato and black pudding - now that's a lunch!!!!
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This lunch is beginning to sound more hazardous to health than the op`s original concern.
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Invictus: I take it then he was wearing hearing protection, proper dust suppression and that the work area was correctly segregated?
Failing to protect himself = tough. Failing to protect me and others = not good enough.
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Liverpool or London, I would go back to office with a hot lunch. In my experience very few operatives who ignore basic heath and safety do it with ignorance. Most will not thank you for bringing it to their attention and you could end up with egg on your face.
Now, if I saw something which was far more dangerous or could affect others such as members of the public I would feel inclined to step up to the plate. :)P
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Being from the smoke I'd go over and warn him that he could become a raspberry unless he changed his ways.
We would then smack each other about a bit and do a traditional cockney knees up before going for pie and mash.
Now the best of friends we would spend the afternoon wolf whistling at birds and abusing traffic wardens.
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Also think of the workers as most are under extreme pressure to get the job done quickly and are poorly paid these days with little [if any] employment protection in place for most and many supply their own kit inclusive of PPE etc. All whilst working in poor weather and welfare [if any welfare is present at all] conditions and such work is mostly undertaken by people not in full time permanent employment as most of the old council employed teams have gone
As the clients rep the last employer I spoke to re such activities sorted it by threatening to sack the lad concerned & noted to me that it would be a warning to others on the job. And as for the client - well enough said
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Martin1 wrote:Being from the smoke I'd go over and warn him that he could become a raspberry unless he changed his ways.
We would then smack each other about a bit and do a traditional cockney knees up before going for pie and mash.
Now the best of friends we would spend the afternoon wolf whistling at birds and abusing traffic wardens. Ha ha very good
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As a Pasma Instructor, i have stopped and asked people working on Aluminium Mobile Towers could they spend a minute of their time to have a quick word. I explain who i am and ask them have they had any training. I usually offer them a copy of the Manufacturers Instruction Manual and show them how they can build it so they don't have to be at risk of falling.
Maybe it's my approach but i am yet to have somebody use the second word 'Off' to me thus far.
I'm happy stopping and doing this.
Er indoors sees it different.
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If I was to do this in the Highlands = No one would understand me.
If I was to do this in Aberdeen = they would pull out the fully completed RA, permit to work document and tell me they have completed the emergency helicopter course.
If I was to do this in Edinburgh = I would need to speak Eastern European.
If I was to do this in Glasgow = I would need to be a fast runner.
So it’s hot breakfast for me.
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Black Pudding barm (apparently the latest "superfood") with HP Fruity sauce as I walk by what is NMP as others have taken coin. Now if it affects nearest & dearest or those I have a contractual duty for the butty is in the microwave (PAT tested of course).
Quasi hypocratic style oath for IOSH membership? Might need to own a few newspapers first though to avoid the usual headlines.
'cmon 1F4rt as security image - certainly did with all that protein at lunch
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Rank: Super forum user
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Black Pudding barm (apparently the latest "superfood") with HP Fruity sauce as I walk by what is NMP as others have taken coin. Now if it affects nearest & dearest or those I have a contractual duty for the butty is in the microwave (PAT tested of course).
Quasi hypocratic style oath for IOSH membership? Might need to own a few newspapers first though to avoid the usual headlines.
'cmon 1F4rt as security image - certainly did with all that protein at lunch
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Why did the chicken cross the road? To get away from the idiots working on his side of the road!
And yes I have crossed the road, in both directions. Depends on my mood at the time and my perception of the scale of risk.
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Yes I have gone and spoken to people, and yes I have had a splendidly colourful response, and yes I did wonder why I bothered.
After a while of thinking on it, I worked out it was for me. My own personal conscience which would be clear as a bell if something happened to him.
The hardest thing to change is a working culture and so I think if 50 safety folk went up to that chap and said he wasn't working safely, yes they would get the expected response, but it may make them start to think about what they are doing...?
Protesting at things maybe shouldn't be the way things change, but often it is. Remember Weight Of Numbers is an acronym!
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If I was you I would be carrying a Bacon Banjo and if there was a dust problem that could affect members of the public I would see if there were any names of a company on his van. If working for the Council I might contact them to report the issue.
If there was a name you can report to the HSE who are interested but it may be a few weeks before they get round to investigating. They like to see pictures that can be emailed to them.
I recently reported a scaffold company to HSE, sent pictures of their poor work at height safety. They were working at my daughter's school above the area where the kids exit the school at the end of the day and nothing to stop materials falling.
HSE contacted me to let me know the company received a rollocking.
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Of course you go over, its your professional duty.
I have the mobile number of the HSE inspector in my phone if discussions dont go well.
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quote=Bigmac1]Of course you go over, its your professional duty.
I have the mobile number of the HSE inspector in my phone if discussions don't go well. A professional duty? Why is it are you saying that people are continually on duty and should put themselves at risk? I didn't go over and not because I was worried but because it had nothing to do with me. I ate my butty and slept well that night. If someone wants to put their life in danger that is up to them I am quite sure they are fully aware that they are.
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Bigmac1 wrote:Of course you go over, its your professional duty.
I have the mobile number of the HSE inspector in my phone if discussions dont go well. Is it our professional duty? I'm not an Inspector, so what is my duty?
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Professional duty? I don't think so, the first rule of emergency first aid is not to become a casualty yourself. If you stopped to tell everyone who does something risky, you would literally never get home. If I see someone doing something really dangerous (life threatening) I will maybe say something and then contact the authorities. I witnessed a man climbing out of a 4th floor window and standing on a ledge to clean windows once and I was quick to call HSE, who did nothing.....
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I thought of this thread while out this afternoon and noticed a scaffold gang erecting their latest scaffold without any fall protection for themselves or being clipped on.
Now then would you or wouldn't you is what I thought as I continued to drive past on my way home ha ha ha
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Bigmac1 wrote:Of course you go over, its your professional duty.
I have the mobile number of the HSE inspector in my phone if discussions dont go well. "The HSE inspector", I knew it wouldnt be long before they where down to just one. I am sure he will appreciate a call regarding someone not wearing PPE when they havnt even got sufficient inspectors to deal with serious accidents.
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As I sit here eating a Nutella sandwich(food of the gods) I can see some guys cutting in to pavement across the road from my house. They don't seem to be wearing any PPE( no eye protection and no ear protection). Am I going to run across and tell them what they should be doing? No, If was to go over I expect I would get a lot of abuse and just be left feeling angry and embarrassed. Will I call the council enforcement officers/HSE...well by the time they get around to having a look the guys will have moved on. Contacting the employer? Who is the employer? the guys are obviously subs and will be working for someone else next week. I sit here eating my sandwich and wonder how often this happens.
A they have just finished. Nobody hurt and so my conscience is assuaged for today...
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Nutella only thing worse is peanut butter.
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As I am sure we are all aware it is, more often than not, the cumulative effects of silica inhalation or noise exposure that presents the problem in situations such as the one discussed. As such they tend to go unchallenged as opposed to situations that present an immediate physical danger.
If these works where taking place on a site that I was responsible for then I would act appropriately as I would then have a professional duty to do so. If they are taking place elsewhere then I do not consider it my professional nor moral duty to intervene.
In much the same vein I would expect a doctor to advise his own patients as to the dangers of smoking and assist them in giving up. I would not however expect him to approach random members of the public he saw with a cigarette and proffer the same advice. Neither would I condemn him for failing to do so.
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If I "had a word" with all the unsafe practices I see EVERY day, I would be hoarse after a few hours.
Today:
Rafter being lifted by a strap over the forks of a tele-handler.
Same site:
Steel lintel being lifted on same forks.
Dumper being driven, no seat belt and no head protection.
Am I going to interfere: No.
Anyway, about the God Food:
Sugar, vegetable oil, hazelnuts (13%), cocoa powder (7.4%), non-fat milk solids, emulsifier (soy lecithin), flavour (vanillin)
I make that about 80% sugar....and veggie oil.
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Invictus wrote:
I was coming back with my lunch (sausage and egg on toast)
I feel it is my professional duty to warn you about the possible health problems that could be caused by your high-cholesterol diet...
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