Hi there, I have taken on the role as H&s Officer at work and would like a little clarity on this. Who is liable if an accident happens at work? I work in the event industry and we have salary managers & supervisors, seasonal supervisors, who work 6 months and casual staff- who may only work for us for 2 days. All managers and supervisors go through h&s training - slide show by me and have been given crib sheets to go through with the casual staff on health and safety. If a casual member of staff had an accident - hit by a car, fall from height etc, who would be liable? As I believe, The MD will be liable, but would the manager and supervisors be liable if they didn't go through h&s with them before starting work or wasn't bothered about it? I always thought it's the managers and supervisors, along with the company owner who could be taken to court, not just the MD! Thanks in advance Kelly

Thank you for this - I thought so, I just wanted to make sure before I start my next session of training.

I have done my IOSH managing safely course.

Maybe he thought the same, there are loads of cases were employees have been fined. www.fork-lift-training.c...orklift-accident-19.html

The IOSH MS course is not enough for a H&S advisory role. There are two sources of law - criminal (statutory) and civil. 'Liability' is a generic term often used across both, but is really a civil law concept. Breaching a legal (statutory) duty can lead to prosecution in Magistrates or Crown courts. The employer holds the primary duty, although individuals can also be found in breach. In theory, no accident need have occurred for prosecutions, although usually this is what triggers an enforcement investigation. This aspect of law is intended to prevent incidents or injury, by setting and maintaining standards (HSWA & regulations etc). If an accident does happen, leading to an injury, then that injured party, or their insurers, can sue the person, persons, or -more usually - the organisation they perceive as having been 'negligent'. This is civil law, goes through Small claims, County or High courts, and is separate from the statutory (above) although both actions - prosecution and a civil suit - can result from one incident. (Think driving - run a red light - breach of law. Hit another car whilst doing it - also can be sued for damages). It is rare for individuals to be sued, as they rarely have money to recompense. The organisation or employer will be sued. If an individual within that organisation has caused the event, the organisation will be vicariously liable. Covered by insurance. Insurance does not cover prosecution (criminal breaches). Fines are levied against the employer, or individuals. Although rare, individuals are coming under the prosecutors spotlight more and more, although realistically the employer (which is a legal 'person') will take the brunt. This is but a short summary of the key points - I hope it prompts you to do a bit more reading. Please avoid the "you can be liable / go to prison" training theme. It was used on the IOSH MS course I sat in on, it just alarms the delegates.

Thank you Sadlass. I am currently reading up on it all and have also ask the question to a lawyer friend. I don't want to alarm anybody, just want to make sure that sufficient briefings are being done to our casual staff. The role I take at work is h&s training days at HQ for our supervisors and managers, consisting of power point slideshow on hazards at work and how to reduce, eliminate, control methods etc & create risk assessments. We have an external source who comes in to help with other matters that I cannot do or feel I do not have sufficient training (CHAS, Audits). I was hoping to do a NEBOSH general certificate this year, would you say that is a good start?

Hi KellsMac Hmm. Your training role sounds like it could be rather more than your H&S education has equipped you for, and also sounds - please don't take offence - quite dull. If you are comfortable with the idea of training per se, but weak on the safety skills, let them do the work. My supervisor / manager short 'training' sessions often go like this: Ask delegates to work with the person or two next to them, or other grouping (YOU decide). Each come up with list of scary stuff that can happen (one side flip chart). You might want to offer a couple of examples "falling from stepladder" - use something relevant to activities, single sentence. Stick lists on wall. Discuss. Laugh. Cry. Consolidate into one list (yours). Use marker pens or coloured sticky notes - red, amber, yellow, green. Red = highest, green = lowest Use 'higher / lower' call outs for risk rating from group and you mark the items on list as you go. Prompt discussion on how these are, or should be, managed and what that does to the risk value. Ask if these 'procedures' actually work. Discuss. Ask what would help to make this better. Discuss. Review the list - make notes / change colours if appropriate. (NB. Often key risks are missed - make sure you have your own 'master list'. Fire, and lack of first aid provision, are commonly forgotten). Summarise. Remember that severity of injury is not related to risk. Ask that any problems or worries are reported (by email, verbally, matters not). Give out a single sheet handout or similar prompt of something which may be useful. Leave. Or show your powerpoint slides! Feedback any problems or issues raised to the management who commissioned the training. (Tips extracted from Duffers Guide . . . ) Or get a really good trainer in, and then copy them.

aud- no offence taken whatsoever. Life is to short to take offence and I'm always open to learning new ways of training and making it more interactive. The time slot I have is 45 minutes to discuss the h&s at work. The training material is streamlined into our field of work and what they will encounter - vehicles, slip/trip/fall/WAH etc. So it's a slideshow of what to do to avoid such things and yes it feels dull, but to try and make it interactive in the time I have is difficult, as on the day they go through Customer service too. The slideshow is 47 slides long and I try not read it all as anyone's voice can get dull and boring. I do have group discussions during as I don't want them to have death by power point.

AUD - You have got me thinking - One of the slides is Main hazards from vehicles - Being struck by objects falling from a vehicles, being struck by a vehicle and stuck vehicles.. I could then turn to the flipchart and get them to discuss the actions needed to reduce the chance of it happening - group or pair work... I am still sticking to what the boss wants to be discussed but making it more interactive and not dull... Thank, love you lots

You are asking the wrong question. It is not a question of liability: that is for a court to decide if something goes wrong. What you should be looking at is responsibility: who is responsible for Health and Safety in your organisation? In short the answer is everybody but it should start at the top with management taking the lead and staff being expected to follow that lead. Seeing Health and Safety as simply an issue of legal liability is in my opinion a mistake. People assume that” it won’t happen here “and “we won’t get caught”. Almost every training session on H&S starts with establishing the reasons for following H&S which usually boil down to Moral(Humanitarian), Economic and Legal. You should look at the other two; the costs of poor H&S practices both financial and human.

On the subject of your next step - NEBOSH etc. I assume you are looking at the other forums (fora?). Not a fan of the NEBOSH Cert to be honest. I like the sound of the new kid on the block: https://www.ncrq.org.uk/dip-health-safety.php Stonecold: Flipchart and sticky notes have never once crashed on me. There is a novelty value these days in using retro tech. Ask for my 'Bluff your way through presentations: for safety practitioners' (hard copy only I'm afraid . . )

I'm breaking the mold and taking away 99% of the slideshow and venturing out into more interactive. My boss wanted power point and certain things covered. It was much longer and I was able to shorten it. I've asked for more time and explained that change is good.

Bit late in joining the party...vicarious liability only applies to the civil law. Rather than go down that road I suggest the employer owes his personnel a duty of care. Agree with others, individual prosecutions are rare and usually reserved for the most serious offences.

For a 45-minute induction you should have no more than 10 slides (when I are started off doing presentation on PowerPoint, I was doing slides at the rate of one slide a minute but I have learned my lesson and now I have cut right back) If you are really confident using flip charts might be fun or anything else that makes people remember you. I was told when learning how to do a presentation, “it’s the dance not the song that people remember” meaning it is how you come across that makes the talk work not if the slides look good. Worst ever presentation (by someone from the BSI explaining how to do OHSAS 18001!) had her sitting at the desk going through slide after slide about how to do H&S under the standard system…. snooze. Keep them engaged and repeat yourself. The slides include: 1. Introduction-who you are and what you do and how they can contact you 2. Why H&s is important (quick run through MEL) 3. How the employer carries out its duty of care. 4. where to find out the information eg intranet 5. General H&S issues-fire, first aid etc 6. Use of risk assessment- what they are and who does them but don’t go too far into this subject. RA needs a talk all to itself. Explain that they’re the driver for all H&S policies and procedures. 7. How to report incidents-who investigates and what the point of this is ie learning lessons 8. Remind them that they need keep in touch and that they have responsibilities too.

Hi A kurdziel. The whole topic has moved on from my initial question - it was never based on my teaching techniques - but i appreciate all opinions. The slide show was based on for example :- Main hazards whilst working around vehicles (we work at events around the country) Being struck by objects falling from a vehicle Being struck by a vehicle Stuck vehicles I would then discuss how to avoid this, to include you and your staff. Never overload vehicles make suer all stores are secure in the van/flatbed make sure you don't stand directly in front of cars whilst parking, always wear your hi-viz and fastened up Firstly see if a towing vehicle is available to get the stuck vehicle out If not the get every able person out of the car, apart from the driver Never push on your own and never attempt the task on your own. I am now discontinuing the power point in a way and with help from a trainer at work we are devising a new lesson plan on creating your own risk assessment for your job role within our company, get them to think of the answers, rather than being told everything and having death by powerpoint. I also discussed Slip/Trip/Falls Weather WAH Vehicles Carbon monoxide/campsites injury from work tools etc. This is why it was so long.. but it's now being changed to a more interactive 1 1/12 hour session, and not just my Lancashire accent talking for 45 mins