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Safety Geek  
#1 Posted : 03 February 2016 16:30:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Safety Geek

Good afternoon fellow practitioners.

I attended a course recently where the tutor stated that British Standards are just guidance.

This threw me a little bit because I've always gone along the lines that a BS can be demonstrated to be as good or better than an ACOP.

What would your take be on this?
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 03 February 2016 16:59:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The BS doesn't have that special status conferred on ACoP by the HASAWA.
In the eyes of the law then, a BS must be viewed as something less than ACoP, therefore more akin to guidance.
toe  
#3 Posted : 03 February 2016 20:59:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Ron Hunter wrote:
The BS doesn't have that special status conferred on ACoP by the HASAWA.
In the eyes of the law then, a BS must be viewed as something less than ACoP, therefore more akin to guidance.


I have to agree with Ron. Although the BS are confusing at times for example the 16th Edition Wiring Regulations are only guidance as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.
paul.skyrme  
#4 Posted : 03 February 2016 21:14:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Toe,
We're on the 17th now btw! ;)

However, yes, Law, Regulations, ACoP, BS, Trade Body Guidance, in that kind of descending order of "authority" as I understand things.
OK, my terms are not "totally" correct, but they are designed to portray the general way of things.

As far as BS7671 goes, it has been deemed irrelevant by one Court unfortunately.

However, it does carry an introduction by HSE that states, compliance with BS7671 will probably result in compliance of your fixed electrical installation with EAWR.
Again, a generalisation, and a use of more colloquial terms.
However, I that is the gist of the statement.
stonecold  
#5 Posted : 04 February 2016 07:50:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

How do people feel about BS5839 which relates to automatic fire alarms. Just had a quote for several 1000 pounds for one of our city offices. The system does not meet L1 standard of BS5839 so we have had a quote to relocate and install additional fire detection.

Some smokes heads we are told neeed relocating..some only a matter of inches from where they currently are as they dont comply with the standard.

Rubbish if you ask me...maybe a money making attempt by the installer. What also annoys me about British standards is that they are not free like other HSE guidnace or ACOPS...Some are several 100s of pounds each..! why not make them free if they are so important!
achrn  
#6 Posted : 04 February 2016 08:14:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Safety Geek wrote:

I attended a course recently where the tutor stated that British Standards are just guidance.

This threw me a little bit because I've always gone along the lines that a BS can be demonstrated to be as good or better than an ACOP.

What would your take be on this?


It's true. BS are guidance.

Most standards committees are substantially self-appointed. You can't have a self-appointed committee creating law or even pseudo-law. Where the law adopts something in a BS it always specifies precisely the standard and the revision, to avoid the committee revising the standard and thereby revising the law.

walker  
#7 Posted : 04 February 2016 08:18:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

quote=stonecold] What also annoys me about British standards is that they are not free like other HSE guidance or ACOPS...Some are several 100s of pounds each..! why not make them free if they are so important!


You have a past government to thank for that.
John Major's IIRC.
They made BSI a money making entity rather than a national resource that it was.

I served on a number of BSI standards making committees at the time and watched a talented group of experts thrown on the scrap heap to be replaced with "administrators" with noses in the trough.
As a result many like me (all volunteers) just gave up and I guess BSI now have to pay for expert assistance like all commercial enterprises.

I assume that sounds familiar ?
walker  
#8 Posted : 04 February 2016 08:25:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

achrn wrote:

Most standards committees are substantially self-appointed.


Yep totally dominated by industry representatives all making sure the standard fits their products and generates work.
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 04 February 2016 08:40:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

They may only be guidance but I think you would find it difficult to prove due diligence especially when looking at the likes of Part B building regs or 9999 concerning fire they all state 'in accordance with BS ****. This also applies to fire alarms, extinguisher checks, fire doors, etc, etc, etc.
Ian Bell2  
#10 Posted : 04 February 2016 08:49:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Agree with most posts - BS standards are not law, just 'persuasive' evidence of best practice.

Also as other shave indicated, sometimes they can be 'called' into law, to be complied with. Although I think this is pretty rare - the only examples I am aware of are to do with the manufacture of fireworks and also children's push chairs.

As for full compliance with BS standards - the fire alarm example being quoted - if out of compliance by a small amount (however you measure that) - I would argue reasonably practical concerns etc, not to fully comply.

Even in engineering design, BS standards are followed - but often with a 'flexible' view on how standards should be followed and interpreted - otherwise costs rise and clients complain.

As regards vested interests of BS committee members - quite agree. People where I work are on various BS committees, who work into standards conditions/points etc that are likely to lead to more consultancy work.

achrn  
#11 Posted : 04 February 2016 10:10:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Ian Bell2 wrote:

Also as other shave indicated, sometimes they can be 'called' into law, to be complied with. Although I think this is pretty rare - the only examples I am aware of are to do with the manufacture of fireworks and also children's push chairs.


Used to be bicycle lights too. Though the law specified a BS revision so old you couldn't actually buy lights that complied with it (and the lights that did comply with it were woefully feeble, inadequate, heavy and unreliable compared to the lights you could buy - remember Ever Ready Night Riders?).

Now we have the wacky situation that the law requires that if the bike light can display a steady mode then it must comply with the BS in all modes, but if it can only display flashing, then it doesn't need to comply with any standard. This is widely thought to be a drafting error.

Meanwhile, there still aren't any lights that do comply with the BS, because although it's a newer one, it's still woefully out of date. (Cateye used to have the TL-AU100 which would be BS legal if it was mounted with a bracket it wasn't sold with but you could in theory buy as an optional extra, but even that light seems to be discontinued now).

Fortunately, it is legal to use a light that's marked to an equivalent EC standard, so my lights are German and meet their standards.

mssy  
#12 Posted : 04 February 2016 17:39:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

stonecold wrote:
How do people feel about BS5839 which relates to automatic fire alarms. Just had a quote for several 1000 pounds for one of our city offices. The system does not meet L1 standard of BS5839 so we have had a quote to relocate and install additional fire detection.

Some smokes heads we are told neeed relocating..some only a matter of inches from where they currently are as they dont comply with the standard.

Rubbish if you ask me...maybe a money making attempt by the installer. What also annoys me about British standards is that they are not free like other HSE guidnace or ACOPS...Some are several 100s of pounds each..! why not make them free if they are so important!


The bottom line is, if you risk assessment says you need a L1 - then you do. However, as BS's aren't law, you can apply variations where those can be supported by a further RA (or within your FRA)

We have extended a staff search time past the BS recommendation at one site as its works for the specific case presented

On another site we get troublesome clients at a public reception. We have removed manual call points to prevent unwanted fire signals, and like many pubs do, justify it by the fact there's a clear line of sight from the reception and a MCP behind the counter

Coming back to your fire alarm issue. L1 coverage is usually associated with high risk occupancies such as care homes, hospitals etc, rather than offices. I would not be brave enough to seek any variation with a premises where vulnerable persons sleep

But you say this is an office?? Is there a complex fire strategy based on a engineered solution or is the building more bog standard.

There is no way I can assess fro here, but take care if your AFD coverage is being led by installers with bank accounts in Monaco :)
stonecold  
#13 Posted : 05 February 2016 05:41:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stonecold

Bog standard office. Problem here is that the landlord (we are a tenant within a multi occupancy building, we occupy one floor and have about 100 staff) has decided to have a blanket requirement of L1 thoughout all of the floors. Strange decision really taking into account all tenants are low risk office type environments.

They did say we can risk assess out any specific variations from the standard if we want, we just makes things more confusing.

We do have, what would be considered a potentially high risk area, as we have two small rest rooms with 2 beds in them, these are for clients who may be on site over night for important meetings etc. Altough these are very rarely used, have sounders right outside the doors and would be managed while in use by the onsite Facitlies team etc. (We are a very high spec office smack bang in the middle of the city).
mssy  
#14 Posted : 05 February 2016 09:55:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

In a former life I was a fire safety inspecting officer covering a part of London with numerous multi occupancy office buildings, many with single staircase conditions, some with a MOE via the roof to next door and others with a MOE thru another demise within the same building.

Very few had any more than L2, and most had L3 coverage. There were a couple of overheight (6&& floors) single staircase with only the stairs as a MOE that had L1 to support staircase pressurisation etc

It seems to me if YOUR FRA says you dont need L1, but the Landlord still wants it, you may wish to allowing him access (under Article 22) but let him pay for it!!

Definitions of categories here http://www.wardandwilson...-alarm-categories-30.htm
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