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CdC  
#1 Posted : 02 March 2016 11:41:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
CdC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35696701

Any thoughts on the above?
jwk  
#2 Posted : 02 March 2016 11:47:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Very interesting, I'd like to see a legal opinion on this one,

John
gramsay  
#3 Posted : 02 March 2016 11:48:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Interesting. Without the actual details, it looks from that report like the court penalised the employer because their employee (who was paid to deal with customers) beat up a customer.

(The fact that the customer was an off-duty employee doesn't seem relevant).

Certainly seems a reasonable thing for the court to consider at least.
Invictus  
#4 Posted : 02 March 2016 12:14:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

According to the article they accepted they were liable as they offered to pay compensation and the courts ruled that they should pay that amount.
Graham  
#5 Posted : 02 March 2016 12:38:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

So now we must train our public facing staff not to be abusive towards the public.

Can we now redeploy or sack staff who have difficulty dealing with the 'Great British Public' and all the nonsense they subject our employees to?

We must make more effort to prosecute abusive members of the public as well.
Oldroyd19659  
#6 Posted : 02 March 2016 13:46:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oldroyd19659

Why would you say "Very interesting, I'd like to see a legal opinion on this one", when it was a supreme court ruling.

The original case was found in against the claimant however it seems to have been overturned on appeal. There is a very good article below on the case and the link between liability and the employee. The employer is nearly always responsible for the acts and omissions of its employee's especialy when those acts can be deemed as "unreasonable" and beating someone up when you are at work...whether they are an employee or not fits in that category. Some rationale as well in the weddle vs wallbank case from 2012

http://www.cipd.co.uk/pm...assault-on-customer.aspx

jwk  
#7 Posted : 02 March 2016 14:12:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Hi Oldroyd; the bald facts of a supreme court ruling as filtered by a journalist leave a lot unsaid. I guess I meant I would like to know more, since on the face of it it doesn't seem to break any very new ground or change anything much. Thanks for the link, I'll read the article now,

John
jay  
#8 Posted : 02 March 2016 14:29:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

The Supreme Court Judgement in full is at:-
https://www.supremecourt...c-2014-0087-judgment.pdf
Oldroyd19659  
#9 Posted : 02 March 2016 14:31:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Oldroyd19659

Hi JWK

Apologies...that was very presumptuous..i miss read your post...i agree with your comments about it does not break new ground. I am not surprised they won on appeal either. Also morrisons have more than enough "reasonable praticability" built into their business to have some kind of assessment of their public facing employees pyscho-social status, before they put them in that environment.
jwk  
#10 Posted : 02 March 2016 15:32:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Jay,

Very helpful as usual. looks very much as though the judgment itself does not support the assertion in the article that there has been any step-change in the application of vicarious liability. It always helps to go back to the source,

John
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 02 March 2016 16:38:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

My understanding of vicarious liability is only relevant to the civil law and employers can be held liable for the vicarious acts of their employees. So I cannot see anything which has changed - except, it could have been argued the employee was on a 'frolic of their own' which given their role and the nature of the conduct seems an unlikely judgment.

In my view employers should be held responsible for the conduct of their employees whilst at work. They cannot necessarily foresee the type of conduct, but they must be held accountable regardless. I'm not sure what benefit there is in pursuing this case now that the unfortunate victim has since died of an unrelated reason.

More worryingly is the case of a teaching assistant who was badly beaten by a pupil's father and he walked free from court!

http://www.dailymail.co....yground-avoids-jail.html

boblewis  
#12 Posted : 02 March 2016 17:32:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

As I often point out Behaviour is also an indicator of competence. Thus I argue that the employer had not properly trained and monitored the employee - no need of vicarious liability therefore.
RayRapp  
#13 Posted : 02 March 2016 17:49:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I agree Bob. That said, I think there are some situations the employer could not have reasonably foreseen.
toe  
#14 Posted : 02 March 2016 19:42:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

My interpretation of Vicarious Liability is about foreseeability. However, this case appears to go against the grain and I'm not sure how the employer could be held liable in this case - but there again I'm no legal eagle.

Two things come to my mind;

a) I thought 'strict liability' was removed!
b) What is the Supreme Court's up to! Cpordia Case comes to mind!
multuminparvo  
#15 Posted : 03 March 2016 11:20:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
multuminparvo

Also released from Supreme Court is Cox v. MoJ
This relates to vicarious liability in prison but the judgement goes far wider.
What happens when a volunteer thumps the service user in the County Library?

See https://www.supremecourt...ases/uksc-2014-0089.html
Jimothy999  
#16 Posted : 03 March 2016 12:18:25(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jimothy999

multuminparvo wrote:
Also released from Supreme Court is Cox v. MoJ
This relates to vicarious liability in prison but the judgement goes far wider.
What happens when a volunteer thumps the service user in the County Library?

See https://www.supremecourt...ases/uksc-2014-0089.html


Having read the press release (not the judgement) this one seems a lot more straightforward to me. The prisoner was undertaking work on behalf of the prison service, regardless of whether or not he was paid for it or had volunteered to do so. Surprised this one made it as far as the supreme court to be honest. Perhaps some more subtlety to it in the full judgement; I haven't the time read it at present.
Invictus  
#17 Posted : 03 March 2016 12:27:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

This is always the case that an officer will take the private or public prions to court, not point in taking the prisoner to court, no compensation in it. It would be deemed a crimanal act and therefore they would get time added on. And then the officer would still seek compensation from the company.

Been there seen it tried to defend it.

It's strange that the cases you think will go know were alwatys get the payout and the ones you think you can't or shouldn't defend you win on. Not always the case of course.
Mr Insurance  
#18 Posted : 04 March 2016 08:17:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr Insurance

Having looked at the judgement, it is definitely a case where there are strong arguments for and against the decision.

On one hand, if a rogue employee assaults a customer and the employer had absolutely no inkling about it, how can the employer be responsible?

On the other, if I went into a shop and was seriously assaulted by a member of staff, I would fully expect the shop to accept responsibility for the injuries I suffered on their property and by their member of staff.

In this case, the assault carried on in the car park, and the employee used the phrase "and don't ever come back here again". This was used by the judge to show that he was making a representation on behalf of his employer and not personally.

Overall, I think that judge probably got this one right - the public have the right to be safe in premises operated by businesses, and if not, the business should be held accountable.
MikeKelly  
#19 Posted : 04 March 2016 10:10:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

The judges got it absolutely right.
Although they were at pains to point out the great difficulties involved in understanding the 'less than precise' tort concepts like fairness, justice, reasonableness and vicarious liability in particular.
Reading the law report thoroughly would help to understand the issues particularly from para 47 on to 58,
Paras 47 and 48 being singled out as the main element of the ratio.
Interesting to see the issue of Public Policy being raised again-part of the deep pockets syndrome-who can best pay, eh?
'Field of activities' to be added to course of employment as well
Regards
Mike
Yes, I know I should get out more!
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