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I would guess this question has been asked before so my apologies...however I would be interested to know whether other people complete a PEEP for vulnerable residents. All our sheltered housing is only manned part-time (3.5 hours) per day. So I have some real difficulty understanding who would assist with any evacuation if it occurred outside these hours.
1.Do you complete a PEEP for sheltered housing residents?
2.Where do you keep the PEEPs so that they are accessible?
3.Do you complete planned or ad hoc building evacuations?
4.Do you provide your staff with PEEP training?
5.Who do you identify who will assist with the evacuation in the event there is an emergency e.g. fire?
PM please if you prefer - thanks.
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Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan. You use them for people who need physical assistance in responding to a fire or other emergency, or in some cases to indicate that people cannot be evacuated and have to be kept safe in some other way.
Used in care homes and hospices, and in sheltered accommodation if it is staffed. They are also used in general workplaces where one or more workers has some form of impairment meaning they either won't see or hear an alarm, or would have difficulty in getting out in a hurry,
John
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Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
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FireSafety101 wrote:Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
With all due respect how are you going to manage it, they have support for 3.5 hours a day, they could be allowed prtivate visitors as it is thier home. So the visitor comes in when no staff are on what are the control, measures? You cannot expect anyone who is not employed to be responsible for the disabled person.
Its like putting a control measure of a harness working at height and saying we won't supply it but it covers are arse.
Isn't it about time we sat back and looked at assessments and stopped bowing to people who want them, who do not have the knowledge to understand them
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I would also be interested in any information regarding this as we are in the same situation.
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It's hard to be definitive here, but my feeling is that for partly staffed sheltered housing you wouldn't have PEEPs. Where I have developed PEEPs for sheltered housing tenants it has been in situations where there are permanent staff, and where the people living in the accommodation have a high level of disability.
PEEPs which operate for only 3.5 hours a day would be a bit odd,
John
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jwk wrote:It's hard to be definitive here, but my feeling is that for partly staffed sheltered housing you wouldn't have PEEPs. Where I have developed PEEPs for sheltered housing tenants it has been in situations where there are permanent staff, and where the people living in the accommodation have a high level of disability.
PEEPs which operate for only 3.5 hours a day would be a bit odd,
John
John,
I agree the problem is people feel like they are backed in a corner and have to do something, it is unmanagable in these situations and could be dangerous if you have someone thinking they are going to be assisted and the staff are of duty. How long do they wait before they realise.
There should be a lot more guidence than 'the risk assessment is up to the person with responsibility'
I think I would rather be in court justifying why I didn't do an assessment than writing one and defending why I wrote it when I knew the control measures where never going to be actioned.
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Invictus wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
With all due respect how are you going to manage it, they have support for 3.5 hours a day, they could be allowed prtivate visitors as it is thier home. So the visitor comes in when no staff are on what are the control, measures? You cannot expect anyone who is not employed to be responsible for the disabled person.
Its like putting a control measure of a harness working at height and saying we won't supply it but it covers are arse.
Isn't it about time we sat back and looked at assessments and stopped bowing to people who want them, who do not have the knowledge to understand them
If you read my second paragraph I wrote "If there is a person in control of the premises".
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quote=FireSafety101] Invictus wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
With all due respect how are you going to manage it, they have support for 3.5 hours a day, they could be allowed private visitors as it is their home. So the visitor comes in when no staff are on what are the control, measures? You cannot expect anyone who is not employed to be responsible for the disabled person.
Its like putting a control measure of a harness working at height and saying we won't supply it but it covers are arse.
Isn't it about time we sat back and looked at assessments and stopped bowing to people who want them, who do not have the knowledge to understand them
If you read my second paragraph I wrote "If there is a person in control of the premises".
Part time PEEP's novel but not a good idea, what if the staff go home early and forget to knock at every door to tell residents, they might be waiting for assistance because staff should be on duty, how long do they wait? What if their watch stops and it's later than they think, they could be left twiddling their thumbs for, well at least until they die!
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Invictus wrote:quote=FireSafety101] Invictus wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
With all due respect how are you going to manage it, they have support for 3.5 hours a day, they could be allowed private visitors as it is their home. So the visitor comes in when no staff are on what are the control, measures? You cannot expect anyone who is not employed to be responsible for the disabled person.
Its like putting a control measure of a harness working at height and saying we won't supply it but it covers are arse.
Isn't it about time we sat back and looked at assessments and stopped bowing to people who want them, who do not have the knowledge to understand them
If you read my second paragraph I wrote "If there is a person in control of the premises".
Part time PEEP's novel but not a good idea, what if the staff go home early and forget to knock at every door to tell residents, they might be waiting for assistance because staff should be on duty, how long do they wait? What if their watch stops and it's later than they think, they could be left twiddling their thumbs for, well at least until they die!
Or what if the part time reaponsible person decides simply not to do the PEEP because he/she uses common sense.
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If you think personnel under your care require a PEEP and you only have personnel onsite for a limited time, I would be inclined to talk to your local fire brigade and find out if they hold a 'vulnerable register' for your accommodation and if your assessments/plans can be incorporated into their document.
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FireSafety101 wrote:Invictus wrote:quote=FireSafety101] Invictus wrote:FireSafety101 wrote:Don't forget visitors who may need assistance in the case of evacuation.
If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.
With all due respect how are you going to manage it, they have support for 3.5 hours a day, they could be allowed private visitors as it is their home. So the visitor comes in when no staff are on what are the control, measures? You cannot expect anyone who is not employed to be responsible for the disabled person.
Its like putting a control measure of a harness working at height and saying we won't supply it but it covers are arse.
Isn't it about time we sat back and looked at assessments and stopped bowing to people who want them, who do not have the knowledge to understand them
If you read my second paragraph I wrote "If there is a person in control of the premises".
Part time PEEP's novel but not a good idea, what if the staff go home early and forget to knock at every door to tell residents, they might be waiting for assistance because staff should be on duty, how long do they wait? What if their watch stops and it's later than they think, they could be left twiddling their thumbs for, well at least until they die!
Or what if the part time reaponsible person decides simply not to do the PEEP because he/she uses common sense.
hat was the point I was making just don't do something because your asked or put under pressure think about the value.
It wasn't what you originally posted
'If there is a person in control of the premises they should at least be aware of disabled visitors and where they are.'
Why should they be aware of disabled visitors the people in the flats like anywhere can invite who they want.
I gather you would have something to say if the responsible person put up a notice 'no disabled persons on the premises when there are no staff, as we would like to complete a PEEP but no-one will be here to ensure that we can carryput the control measures'
H&S a laughing stock, now Fire Safety, god help us, if there is one and I am not saying there is or that he doesn't go by another name.
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I think with sheltered housing we have to be careful about assuming a duty of care for the residents. Wardens in sheltered housing often don't have the same relationship or legal duty to the tenants as carers in a residential home do. Carers are accountable for the safety of the people in their care, wardens may well not have 'people in their care',
John
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Has anyone completed the diploma in fire door inspection! Yes really there is one, I was just wondering if it is worth it. Will it bring in new customers? Anyone's point of view welcome as it's valuable.
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We are being asked by the fire & rescue services for PEEPs at our sheltered schemes where we have very limited staff. We have a list of flat numbers with a very brief description of any assistance the tenant may require. This is kept in the Premises Information Box.
We have also sat in meetings where the fire & rescue services have stated that in their opinion care & supported schemes are now in their eyes the highest risk premises and they are going to target them.
A quote from one such meeting if it looks like a care home, smells like a care home then we will treat it as a care home, regardless of staffing levels.
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russlfc wrote:We are being asked by the fire & rescue services for PEEPs at our sheltered schemes where we have very limited staff. We have a list of flat numbers with a very brief description of any assistance the tenant may require. This is kept in the Premises Information Box.
We have also sat in meetings where the fire & rescue services have stated that in their opinion care & supported schemes are now in their eyes the highest risk premises and they are going to target them.
A quote from one such meeting if it looks like a care home, smells like a care home then we will treat it as a care home, regardless of staffing levels.
Put on your PEEP's that they will be rescued by the fire service and see the reaction then, because you cannot rely on them to rescue anyone, even if you have a refuge.
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Care homes and Shelter Accommodation are entirely different premises with different risks. However, I accept that some premises do straddle both definitions and create fire safety management and enforcement difficulties.
Pretty much all non residential premises will have a generic evacuation plan and a PEEP fills in the gap for those who can't follow the generic plan for any reason by making a bespoke plan.
Its clear to me that if an evac plan in a commercial or business or care setting involves a roll call or sweep, then a PEEP system is required - even a part time one where staff are expected to be involved in the evacuation only when on site.
Where staff are not part of an evac plan - eg a Stay Put procedure - then a PEEP may not be required.
As far as the Fire Service policy to enforce as care homes if there is any doubt, I do not blame them. Their audit policies have always been risk led, and long may that continue
Dont forget if care is offered, its a care home. If not, it might be a sheltered home. A very basic rule adopted by some fire services is that if staff can open the front door to a flat, its a care setting.
I am so glad I dont deal with these type of premises any more!
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Any assessment should really be made BEFORE person is offered a tenancy. The aim is to assess their suitability for this type of accommodation. You are aware then if they are able to self evacuate and understand the alarms. If they cannot self evacuate then they need a more supported environment. The problem for you now is that the landlord may have unsuitable residents and that is a very different question to resolve. Your assessment for each resident will also need regular update to detect any signs of deterioration in cognitive or physical abilities.
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Thanks for all your comments.
I think it is clear there are a number of issues relating to PEEPs in sheltered housing where there is a 'stay put' policy. The fire authority seem to, er, encourage PEEPs. All well and good but it is the practical aspect of conducting them and when there is no staff on site who is going to assist with the evacuation other than the fire authorities.
With a fairly large turnover of staff conducting PEEPs is no small matter either. Ok in an ideal world...but the resources are another issue. I am going to tackle this head on and speak with the fire authorities to put my case. I know of no legislation which requires a PEEP to be conducted, so if push comes to shove I am going to stick with my principles and not conduct a PEEP for the sake of it.
I did toy with the idea of putting symbols on a building plan or even on their front door to indicate if they have a particular vulnerability which may impinge with their evacuation. However as you can guess this idea was greeted with 'You can't do that, blah, blah'. I think this problem requires a novel and bold initiative.
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Ray
I go back to my post - if you have persons with high needs for support wrt evacuation then places that do not have full time support staff are totally unsuitable. Maybe this is what the FO was pushing the organisation to recognise. Long experience with Nursing, Care and various sheltered accommodation types has taught me that you really do need to ensure people are placed in appropriate types of accommodation, and you do need regular review. Look at sites such as this
https://www.theindependentlivingassessment.com/
The landlord cannot deny responsibility here as can occur with able bodied residents as he is making choices that increase the potential for risk by not havig a proper assessment process.
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Hi Bob
The fact is, most people living in sheltered housing by definition have some form of vulnerability which could affect their evacuation in the unlikely event of a serious fire. However, the principle of sheltered housing is it provides 'independent living' and I would argue it comes with a modicum of risk. Do we accept that or try to find solutions for all manner of difficult issues?
Ray
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I would suggest that symbols are not put on front doors as this can be an indicator so the not so nice people of society and make residents easy pickings for burglaries, con men etc. If you are to put this information somewhere it should be in the information book/log book made available to the brigade in emergencies
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thanks for the replies, Invictus you are right regarding putting on the PEEP that the fire and rescue service will rescue them. The reaction would be interesting, however this is something they have mentioned.
Bob, yes we do assess people before they move in, however some of the tenants moved in 20/30 years ago when they were fit and healthy and only had to meet the age criteria i.e. 55. They have their own care package arranged by themselves and these properties are not staffed, as mentioned in some cases staff are on site 6 hours a week. We have started a sprinkler retrofit of the larger properties phase one has just completed and phase two has just started. This means that our 8 largest schemes will be covered.
Any new schemes now have sprinklers fitted as standard.
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Don't always think that the fire brigade know what they are talking about when they are asking for things to be completed. They are like everyone else they hear something and use it. I am not saying all of them, but when you go through the topic they understand that there is no point to it if the control measures cannot be met.
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Invictus wrote:Don't always think that the fire brigade know what they are talking about when they are asking for things to be completed. They are like everyone else they hear something and use it. I am not saying all of them, but when you go through the topic they understand that there is no point to it if the control measures cannot be met.
So true. I had a member of staff email me some while ago saying a Fire Inspector advised her to turn off the fire alarm when she is in the building in order to reduce unwanted fire alarms. I responded NEVER disable the fire alarm and ignore the poor advice!
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We have had some of our establishemnts tell me that the fire inspector said it is ok to wedge fire doors open. I have asked for this in writing. I always point out as I write the risk assessments then that's what they follow.
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My parents lived in sheltered housing many years ago and were dictated to by a group of other residents who enjoyed making up rules that did not take account of other residents.
One problem my parents had was the eleven fire doors between the entrance and their flat, so heavy not just to pull open but to push as well.
They were not allowed to use wedges, the Fire Safety Officer of the time refused to allow that.
They had an alternative entrance right next to their flat at the rear. It was a Fire Exit door and that was far easier until the "Gestapo" found out and glass bolts were fitted, that prevented their use.
They were in sheltered housing but had no say in what went on.
In that situation would we expect PEEPs to be written for everyone who lived there?
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Russlfc and Invictus please note the following requirements for fire services regarding their duties when attending fires.
Also note there is no mention of them required to carry out rescues.
This is contrary to your posts at 18 and 25 above.
Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Fire-fighting
(1)A fire and rescue authority must make provision for the purpose of—
(a)extinguishing fires in its area, and
(b)protecting life and property in the event of fires in its area.
(2)In making provision under subsection (1) a fire and rescue authority must in particular—
(a)secure the provision of the personnel, services and equipment necessary efficiently to meet all normal requirements;
(b)secure the provision of training for personnel;
(c)make arrangements for dealing with calls for help and for summoning personnel;
(d)make arrangements for obtaining information needed for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1);
(e)make arrangements for ensuring that reasonable steps are taken to prevent or limit damage to property resulting from action taken for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1).
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FireSafety101 wrote:
Russlfc and Invictus please note the following requirements for fire services regarding their duties when attending fires.
Also note there is no mention of them required to carry out rescues.
This is contrary to your posts at 18 and 25 above.
Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Fire-fighting
(1)A fire and rescue authority must make provision for the purpose of—
(a)extinguishing fires in its area, and
(b)protecting life and property in the event of fires in its area.
(2)In making provision under subsection (1) a fire and rescue authority must in particular—
(a)secure the provision of the personnel, services and equipment necessary efficiently to meet all normal requirements;
(b)secure the provision of training for personnel;
(c)make arrangements for dealing with calls for help and for summoning personnel;
(d)make arrangements for obtaining information needed for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1);
(e)make arrangements for ensuring that reasonable steps are taken to prevent or limit damage to property resulting from action taken for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1).
That's what I said that they will not carryout rescues because they are not required too, that is why they shouldn't be asking for a PEEP when there is no one in the building to assist.
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To support my last post here is the section of the same Regulations relating to the FRS requirements at road traffic accidents.
You will see the specific requirement for rescues.
Road traffic accidents
(1)A fire and rescue authority must make provision for the purpose of—
(a)rescuing people in the event of road traffic accidents in its area;
(b)protecting people from serious harm, to the extent that it considers it reasonable to do so, in the event of road traffic accidents in its area.
(2)In making provision under subsection (1) a fire and rescue authority must in particular—
(a)secure the provision of the personnel, services and equipment necessary efficiently to meet all normal requirements;
(b)secure the provision of training for personnel;
(c)make arrangements for dealing with calls for help and for summoning personnel;
(d)make arrangements for obtaining information needed for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1);
(e)make arrangements for ensuring that reasonable steps are taken to prevent or limit damage to property resulting from action taken for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1).
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FireSafety101 wrote:To support my last post here is the section of the same Regulations relating to the FRS requirements at road traffic accidents.
You will see the specific requirement for rescues.
Road traffic accidents
(1)A fire and rescue authority must make provision for the purpose of—
(a)rescuing people in the event of road traffic accidents in its area;
(b)protecting people from serious harm, to the extent that it considers it reasonable to do so, in the event of road traffic accidents in its area.
(2)In making provision under subsection (1) a fire and rescue authority must in particular—
(a)secure the provision of the personnel, services and equipment necessary efficiently to meet all normal requirements;
(b)secure the provision of training for personnel;
(c)make arrangements for dealing with calls for help and for summoning personnel;
(d)make arrangements for obtaining information needed for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1);
(e)make arrangements for ensuring that reasonable steps are taken to prevent or limit damage to property resulting from action taken for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1).
Don't get what your on about, I said all along that the rescue service don't acarryout rescues, that is why if you have arefuge point you then need a plan on how you are getting them out WITHOUT relying on the FB.
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FS101 - I think the general rule for fire authorities is that they will always help in the event of a fire, but you should not rely upon their assistance when you are planning how you will initially deal with a fire at your site, by that I mean getting people out. False alarms, distance, strikes, traffic, other incidents or poor weather all might dictate the response time, in reality it could be 5 minutes, or 50 minutes. The fire officer will not be pleased if you include the FB as an absolutely necessary part of your evacuation - I've had that said to me and I've been encouraged to have stand-alone processes in place to get vulnerable occupants out.
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russlfc wrote:thanks for the replies, Invictus you are right regarding putting on the PEEP that the fire and rescue service will rescue them. The reaction would be interesting, however this is something they have mentioned.
Bob, yes we do assess people before they move in, however some of the tenants moved in 20/30 years ago when they were fit and healthy and only had to meet the age criteria i.e. 55. They have their own care package arranged by themselves and these properties are not staffed, as mentioned in some cases staff are on site 6 hours a week. We have started a sprinkler retrofit of the larger properties phase one has just completed and phase two has just started. This means that our 8 largest schemes will be covered.
Any new schemes now have sprinklers fitted as standard.
Yes I am aware of this problem and most accommodation has lease clauses that permit the landlord to take action should the person become unable to continue without greater support than can be provided. It is an issue as you say when such things were not addressed in the past. It often needs to be opened with relatives, who may well have some degree of guardianship of the resident. Not an easy task
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My previous employer provided care support for a large sheltered accommodation complex. The people living there were very mixed, and I have to say that the majority, although living in sheltered accommodation, were not in receipt of any care and would have resented very strongly any attempt to include them in any form of fire evacuation planning other than on a very basic level. We had PEEPs for the people that needed them.
However, this particular site had care workers on hand for 12 hours a day as well as permanent wardens/security, so PEEPs were feasible.
It all depends on what is meant by sheltered accommodation and what the demographics of the site are,
John
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FireSafety101 wrote:My parents lived in sheltered housing many years ago and were dictated to by a group of other residents who enjoyed making up rules that did not take account of other residents.
One problem my parents had was the eleven fire doors between the entrance and their flat, so heavy not just to pull open but to push as well.
They were not allowed to use wedges, the Fire Safety Officer of the time refused to allow that.
They had an alternative entrance right next to their flat at the rear. It was a Fire Exit door and that was far easier until the "Gestapo" found out and glass bolts were fitted, that prevented their use.
They were in sheltered housing but had no say in what went on.
In that situation would we expect PEEPs to be written for everyone who lived there?
I have family members who remember what the real Gestapo were like.
But hey, it's just a name, right? :-/
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My mum and dad also remembered the gestapo, and it was they who called the bullies that name.
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While discussing the fire and rescue service rescuing people from fires it is worth noting the extra distances they have to travel and the longer time it takes to get there.
This morning there was a fire fatality in Wirral, the local station, 2 minutes way is now unmanned due to recent cut backs in the service, so the next nearest station about 14 minutes away was sent. Another fire appliance was sent from a station in Liverpool, maybe 20 or so minutes away.
I would not like to be waiting that long for rescue when I was trapped in a building on fire.
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I don't really understand what the purpose of detailing what the fire brigade do and don't do. In the world I live in fire officers protect life and property, they also carry out rescues if required. Police arrest criminals and taylors still make suits I believe.
On a more serious note, if we can't rely on fire officers to assist in an emergency who the heck can we rely on. I understand that in some situations an employer needs to devise his emergency plan, such as working at height, without the reliance on the emergency services. However, we are talking about a serious fire where only fire fighters might be able to enter a burning building. No employer could ask let alone rely on a member of staff to do such a task.
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