Rank: Forum user 
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There is more and more defibrillators set up in public areas. the idea is they are for easy access in an emergency. Personally I have two concerns with that.
first is the security of the device. a supermarket near me has one located outside their store. the box states it is alarmed. however if the alarm goes off by someone stealing it ( as they are not cheap) it would take time for any staff member to respond.
my second concern is their use by untrained people. I know they are now designed to be almost "idiot proof", but how would be liable if they were in correctly used. would it be the member of the public using it or the company that bought it.
correct me if I am mistaken, but I was always taught at first aid you cannot be liable for your actions if you carry out any procedure that you are trained to do and not to exceed your training.
Thanks
Mike
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My understanding is that they aren't "almost idiot-proof", they ARE idiot-proof, in that (after the device assesses the casualty) they will not deliver a shock of a level which may harm someone. That's what the ones we're buying do.
Ok, you could hit someone with one I guess.
Surely it's the supermarket's decision where they place and whether they alarm the thing? If it costs them to police it, why should that affect us unless they put the price of beans up? I think it's great that they're spending money on providing something that does what other first aid doesn't do.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The modern defibs give you the training while you are using them. The one we bought is crystal clear about what you need to do,and also talks you through CPR.
Bear in mind that if someone needs this treatment, and does not get it, they will definitely die. The survival potential falls substantially for every minute elapsed, so the more of these things there are around, the better.
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We have just put a number of Public Access Defibs in the 6 villages surrounding me..yes there is always concerns about the safety of the device...but the community boxes are pretty good.. As for the Training you just Need the ability to listen and in english, sorry as a Scotsman it is sometimes difficult!)..and follow the instructions. We have supprted that with HeartStart courses in the community but essentially it isn#t needed as the first bit is call 999/112 and the call handler will talk you through it. On the liability front you will be acting in good faith to help... https://www.resus.org.uk...of-those-attempting-cpr/
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Rank: Forum user 
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good topic! and good that they are more commonplace now.
my knowledge of these modern defibs is that they give clear instructions as you begin to operate them. They will not arm to shock if they cannot detect a 'shockable rythm'.
As previous comments the sooner attempt is made at either conventional cpr or using one of these devices ,the better the chances of IP's survival..
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I see defibs just like fire extinguishers - anyone can use them if they are available and the chances of prosecution are near zero (although civil claims might be more likely these days).
BUT, if they are used by employees in the workplace then the Management Regs kick in and staff need training on this work equipment. Given the ease of use and fail-safe design of defibs that training will not need to be too complex.
As for security, I can't see a huge blackmarket in knock-off defibs. Vandalism may be an issue, so sensible positioning will need to be considered, taking into account who the intended users will be - public or staff.
Ian
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If you collapse in a public place what are your chances of a trained first aider passing by? Its been nearly 25 years since I last did any CPR training. Yes if needed I would give it a go, but I would much rather open one of these box's and use the defib, and I would want others do the same if it was me lying in the street.
Who knows what the civil courts would make of a situation like this, but I would take my chances. I would rather stand in a witness box and say I had done everything I could to try and save a life, than stand in one and say no I had let someone die because i was worried i might be sued!
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Ian A-H wrote:I see defibs just like fire extinguishers - anyone can use them if they are available and the chances of prosecution are near zero (although civil claims might be more likely these days).
BUT, if they are used by employees in the workplace then the Management Regs kick in and staff need training on this work equipment. Given the ease of use and fail-safe design of defibs that training will not need to be too complex.
As for security, I can't see a huge blackmarket in knock-off defibs. Vandalism may be an issue, so sensible positioning will need to be considered, taking into account who the intended users will be - public or staff.
Ian There has been changes to first aid and guidence to Judges regarding this and the introduction of Sarah's Law!
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Invictus, always keen to learn, that's why I'm on the Forum.
Care to expand? I thought Sarah's law was about the disclosure of paedophiles???
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Rank: Super forum user
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Ian A-H wrote:Invictus, always keen to learn, that's why I'm on the Forum.
Care to expand? I thought Sarah's law was about the disclosure of paedophiles??? SARAH sorry might have put it wrong 'Social Action, Responsibilty and Heroism Act 2015.
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HAHA!! I'll get Googling...
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you beat me to it...the Point is that regadless of this most countries have a good samaritans process in law...the resuscouncil Guidelines were updated in line with this guidance.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Many of the defibs are in locked cabinets and upon calling 999 they are able to give you a code to access the cabinet so there is some security there. Having them available and perhaps being able to do something a few seconds or minutes earlier could make the difference- not always but worth a shot to me.
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Are these devices powered by battery, if so who looks after the batteries.
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The defib itself and the alarm system on the cabinet are both powered by batteries. A checklist is supplied with the system and monthly checks are recommended by the manufacturer. The battery and electrode pads are marked with an expiry date. The defib is checked by a "competent person"....
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Brian Hagyard wrote:If you collapse in a public place what are your chances of a trained first aider passing by? Its been nearly 25 years since I last did any CPR training. Yes if needed I would give it a go, but I would much rather open one of these box's and use the defib, and I would want others do the same if it was me lying in the street.
Who knows what the civil courts would make of a situation like this, but I would take my chances. I would rather stand in a witness box and say I had done everything I could to try and save a life, than stand in one and say no I had let someone die because i was worried i might be sued!
If you wait for the device to be fetched, the patients clothing removed, the device turned on and the audio instructions followed: The person will be dead. They are only useful to correct a defective heart action. The person needs to be kept in a state of living, with cpr, or you may as well not bother. FIRST CPR. SECOND AID.
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Every Minute without CPR reduces the Chance of survival by around 10%....early Access to CPR>early Access to defib> early Access to Advance care...The most common cause of Sudden Cardiac Arrest is entricular fibrillation. In v-fib, the ventricles (the heart's lower chambers) don't beat normally. Instead, they quiver very rapidly and irregularly.
Another arrhythmia that can lead to SCA is ventricular tachycardia. This is a fast, regular beating of the ventricles that may last for only a few seconds or for much longer.
In people who have either of these arrhythmias, an electric shock from an AED can restore the heart's normal rhythm. Doing CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) on someone having SCA also can improve his or her chance of survival.
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quote=JohnMurray] Brian Hagyard wrote:If you collapse in a public place what are your chances of a trained first aider passing by? Its been nearly 25 years since I last did any CPR training. Yes if needed I would give it a go, but I would much rather open one of these box's and use the defib, and I would want others do the same if it was me lying in the street.
Who knows what the civil courts would make of a situation like this, but I would take my chances. I would rather stand in a witness box and say I had done everything I could to try and save a life, than stand in one and say no I had let someone die because I was worried I might be sued!
If you wait for the device to be fetched, the patients clothing removed, the device turned on and the audio instructions followed: The person will be dead. They are only useful to correct a defective heart action. The person needs to be kept in a state of living, with cpr, or you may as well not bother. FIRST CPR. SECOND AID. So no one trained in CPR your dead - wait for the defib your dead! What a cheerful chap you are. And yes I know these are not some magic device that can save everyone but surly anything that improves survival chances is a good thing!
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Brian.
The longer a person has no circulation the more severe the brain damage is.
The FIRST thing to do BEFORE fetching any defibrillator is to ensure circulation is maintained by CPR.
Even with the correct treatment there is a poor long-term recovery prospects.
If you wait 5 minutes for the device to be fetched/attached/operated: You are shocking a corpse.
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I have to kinda agree with JM on this one. CPR would be my initial preferred option over a defib.
Oxygenated blood circulation is important. Sometimes a defib can do this and sometimes not.
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Toe wrote:I have to kinda agree with JM on this one. CPR would be my initial preferred option over a defib.
Oxygenated blood circulation is important. Sometimes a defib can do this and sometimes not. It's BOTH. The defibrillator can restore correct heart action, but the person needs to be kept oxygenated while it is fetched/set-up. Even in hospital the victim is subjected to chest compressions while the already-available machine is attached and operated. Don't wait: Chest compression is vital.
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And the best training aid I have ever seen is the Vinnie Jones video.
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...look guys PAD defibs are a really good thing...don't look at the various US studies completed as they were based on defibs placed in Hospitals....of course manual heart compressions (as there are automatic ones available) are essential. Defibs DON'T provide oxygenated blood round the system or provide what's called pacing...they will either shock or they won't. The 2 breaths provide additional oxygen to the blood combined with compressions..lack of oxygen to the brain for ~3mins can lead to brain damage or reduced function (You might end up only being able to fulfil the role as a Principle Contractor!..Joke)...if you don't feel comfortable give breaths then hands only CPR..sometimes we think too much. It is a really British thing to walk by but one day it could be you..
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EARLY Recognition, Call for HELP
EARLY CPR
EARLY Defib
EARLY Post Resus Care!
End of!
Let's get more of these devices out there!
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Is this the future of first response?
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cbfire999 wrote:EARLY Recognition, Call for HELP
EARLY CPR
EARLY Defib
EARLY Post Resus Care!
End of!
Let's get more of these devices out there! That's the correct and to the point 'Chain of Survival' answer.
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When you have lain on the pavement and a passerby has run into the nearest sports centre and got the Defib and brought you back to life then you know the real value.
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Read in the paper the other day of a sports centre which refused to let a teacher from a near-by school from using their Defib, for H&S reasons. It appears that they only had one and if they let this teacher have it then they would not have had cover for their customers.
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Thank god they're all not like that!
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and one in the last week where the dispatcher wouldn't give the code for a defib- luckily the ambulance defib only had to be used once- but no-one is sure why the code wasn't given- it was installed a month ago.
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Originally Posted by: O'  Read in the paper the other day of a sports centre which refused to let a teacher from a near-by school from using their Defib, for H&S reasons. It appears that they only had one and if they let this teacher have it then they would not have had cover for their customers. THat has given me so many questions! Do you have a link to this story?
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Rank: Super forum user
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I have seen reports of thefts in local media so they do happen.
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Brian Hagyard wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3498406/Leisure-centre-refused-let-nearby-school-use-defibrillator-teacher-s-heart-stopped-lesson-against-health-safety-rules.html
Took longer to type this message than to find the story - Its in the Daily Mail - I will make no comment on that! http://www.gazette-news....er_saving_teacher_s_lifeIn the above source, the leisure centre states that "This was not a public or community defibrillator". Does that imply that it was not a 'foolproof' model, but perhaps something more substantial that could actually kill someone? I'm reluctant to take a tabloid story at face value, or to believe that anywhere could be quite that silly.
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No it just means that it is provided by them and not noted on the CAD system for the local ambulance service...
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I live in an area were the dad of Oliver King who was a young lad who died at school collapsed of a heart attack, thee family have fought for years to have the government put these in all schools and community places for years.
I refereed in the football league that Oliver played in and still thgink that it should be mandatory training for all referees as theses are the one constant at local pitches and there are normally quite a few who could assist.
Yes we only have one per group of football pitches, but it could make all the difference.
Sadly schools and community areas still decided that they have more important things to spend money on.
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I responded to one of our local schools same thing...it is the EA that has the problem (On health & safety liability grounds apparently...)....we set the school up with their own BHF HeartStart program funded by contributions from parents and local community.
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I HAVE CLEARED THIS WITH MODERATOR 2.
Remember when using an AED (just in case you are not trained) that in the case of a female, you will have to cut their bra off as if it is underwired, the current from the AED could cause severe burns.
I have verified my recollection with the Chief Instructor from a private ambulance company
The chest needs to be exposed on all patients regardless of sex.
The hand placement can only be located by using the nipple-line which cannot be determined if there is a bra in place.
Also remove any jewellery on the chest/neck area.
Hope this helps the conversation
Ciarán
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Actually ou just lift the bra around the neck. It saves time, and having to find scissors. If in a large shopping centre, you also have to ignore the unintelligent young males who immediately crowd around with ignorant comments.
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