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Jimothy999  
#41 Posted : 13 April 2016 15:58:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jimothy999

WatsonD wrote:
So: 1) someone has broken in to our secure property. 2) Started a fire completely by accident 3) This fire has taken hold, so hard and fast, it has blocked off the route they came in by. 4) They cannot escape because the fire doors have been padlocked. Assuming then that there are no windows large enough to get through, the burglar doesn't still have the crowbar, etc. he used to break in and he is such a monumental cretin that he managed to start a fire and trap himself. In that case I'd say that it was either natural selection or Gods will (depending on your preference) therefore no blame could be put on any other human being for this mans stupidity - I think that will stand up in court :0)
I would tend to agree with the scenario you present and your conclusions, but.... What if our burglar was instead a child or young person of limited mental capacity, or a group of kids breaking in for a laugh? What if these break ins were a regular occurrence so the owner was well aware of the tendency for children to do this? What if this was a low tier COMAH site and they had elected to lock the fire doors as a cost saving measure instead of hiring security guards and erecting a decent fence? What if the fire was started due to negligence on the part of the owner in failing to address known fire risks? Context is everything in these discussions and certainly would be in the courts. Just because someone is trespassing does not necessarily absolve the owner/operator of responsibility.
chas  
#42 Posted : 13 April 2016 16:46:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

The point I was trying to illustrate at #25 was that if the door/windows were open/not secured then the burglar becomes an occupant, in which case the fire exits should be available for use. If the fire exit doors have been padlocked and cannot be used in the event of an emergency then the owner/occupier may have a case to answer. If the burglar actually broke in then the owner/occupier may have a good defence. Whilst the burglar may be the master of his/her own misfortune the upshot is that the padlocking of fire exits should not be done without careful consideration and even empty buildings need to be looked after and kept secure.
Alfasev  
#43 Posted : 14 April 2016 10:33:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Alfasev

Unless you have permission or implied permission to enter a property it is trespass. Implied permission is given for deliveries, postman, customers etc. By leaving a door or window open does not give anyone implied permission. The duty of care to trespassers is covered in the Occupiers' Liability Act 1984. Therefore if a burglar, who as well as trespassing is breaking criminal law by attempting to steal something, dies there is no case to answer unless gross negligence involved. Locking a fire door of an empty property is not gross negligence. Gross negligence would involve not controlling imminent, foreseeable and real risks for example storing large quantities of petrol dangerously in breach PCR and DSEAR, which was inadvertently ignited by the burglar.
chris42  
#44 Posted : 14 April 2016 10:54:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I think it is about time we heard from the OP as to why they think their site could give rise to accidental fire, to judge, as per last post. I’m guessing it is not that while breaking in through a high level window at 2am, then after scaling down the wall, decided he had the munchies and as luck would have it he had a camping stove some eggs and bacon in his swag bag. This fry up in turn causes a fire while unattended, as he goes about thieving. Or In a statement to the police the thief admitted the use of the thermal lance to get a chocolate bar out of the vending machine was a little overkill. I think the real concern for me would not be the fire doors, but the ease someone could easily “accidentally” start a fire.
johnmurray  
#45 Posted : 14 April 2016 11:07:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

The real concern for me would be getting the corpse removed fast, to start repairs and re-open the biz. Then consulting solicitors to see if the deceased persons estate could be sued for damages.
RayRapp  
#46 Posted : 14 April 2016 12:26:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

chris42 wrote:
I think it is about time we heard from the OP as to why they think their site could give rise to accidental fire, to judge, as per last post. I’m guessing it is not that while breaking in through a high level window at 2am, then after scaling down the wall, decided he had the munchies and as luck would have it he had a camping stove some eggs and bacon in his swag bag. This fry up in turn causes a fire while unattended, as he goes about thieving. Or In a statement to the police the thief admitted the use of the thermal lance to get a chocolate bar out of the vending machine was a little overkill. I think the real concern for me would not be the fire doors, but the ease someone could easily “accidentally” start a fire.
Chris, you got it all wrong mate. The intruder was in fact an employee who had left his laptop at work but he desperately needed it because he was working from home the next day. Upon his return he found the premises locked so decided to enter the premises via a skylight in the roof using a bungee to absail down to the ground floor. He erroneously left his torch on the roof and found a candle which he lit so he could see where he was going. The intruder then tripped in the semi darkness and the candle inavertantly ignited a vat of oil. Meanwhile he could not escape they way he entered because the bungee had got caught on a steel roof beam when it sprung back. Hence his only means of escape was the fire exits which had been padlocked of course. Simples - LOL.
chris42  
#47 Posted : 15 April 2016 14:20:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Ray of course why didn't I see that, happens all the time ? But wouldn't quote "and the candle inadvertently ignited a vat of oil" have actually put the candle out. I would not have thought you would be able to ignite a vat of oil like that. Does oil give off flammable vapour at room temp ? Not enough energy in a candle to heat the oil sufficiently to raise its temp is there ? Maybe if there was something in the oil to act as a wick ? (swag bag for instance ?) :0)
Safety Smurf  
#48 Posted : 15 April 2016 14:33:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Bit surprised that nobody has yet mentioned that under the RRFSO the duty holder only has responsibilities to those relevant persons who are 'LAWFULLY' on the premises.
Messy  
#49 Posted : 16 April 2016 14:46:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messy

Safety Smurf wrote:
Bit surprised that nobody has yet mentioned that under the RRFSO the duty holder only has responsibilities to those relevant persons who are 'LAWFULLY' on the premises.
Me too. This matter is quite simple that an intruder is not a 'relevant person' so the RP has no duty to protect them. This is why final fire exits can be locked at night I understand that the term relevant person applies in Scotland too however I am not sure if the definition excludes intruders in the same way the FSO does
johnmurray  
#50 Posted : 16 April 2016 18:29:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Still don't care..... At the end of the day/night, nobody cares about the H&S of burglars. They want health, safety and welfare: Get a job and stop breaking into property.
Bigmac1  
#51 Posted : 17 April 2016 18:51:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

Why on earth would you want to padlock a fire door in the first place. Get all you deserve if you do.
RayRapp  
#52 Posted : 18 April 2016 15:39:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Don't forget overlapping legislation, it's not just about fire legislation.
Messy  
#53 Posted : 18 April 2016 16:13:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Messy

Bigmac1 wrote:
Why on earth would you want to padlock a fire door in the first place. Get all you deserve if you do.
Literally thousands of premises in London alone secure final fire exit doors after business closes. Those with large occupancies such as department stores, theatres and nightclubs require panic bolt (push bar) door furniture as a result of their FRA to ensure relevant persons can escape without a crush situation developing It is these premises that may be most vulnerable to intruders as these doors are rarely secure enough to satisfy businesses or their insurance companies. I have worked with many premises to ensure they have adequate systems to ensure doors are unlocked or chains removed before the building is occupied If managed appropriately there is absolutely no legislative issue in securing a premises out of hours. I am surprised anyone would query it to be honest as the days of leaving the back door open when you pop out are well behind us!!
Me  
#54 Posted : 18 April 2016 17:17:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Me

And the RRO applies to 'relevant' people who may be lawfully on the premises and to others in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises. And if I knew a burglar was 'visiting' I would have put the kettle on and made a fresh cake....
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