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JulieBrown  
#1 Posted : 19 April 2016 12:42:39(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JulieBrown

Hello, I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire. When I have worked for larger organisations that have had existing employees refuse the checks we got them to sign to say they had declined even though offered. Obviously with new employees you can make a condition in their contract but what advice does anyone have when on 'catch up' and back tracking. I'm talking SME's so its' taken a time persuade them this is the right thing to do. Any advice or previous experience would be appreciated, thanks
Ron Hunter  
#2 Posted : 19 April 2016 13:43:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Where occ. health surveillance is identified as necessary via risk assessment, then this becomes part of the contract - written or otherwise - to follow reasonable instruction. There is an implied master/servant relationship. Failure to comply = disciplinary action.

"Offering" health 'checks' is an entirely different matter.
JulieBrown  
#3 Posted : 19 April 2016 13:59:35(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
JulieBrown

Thanks Ron, yes this is identified as necessary after risk assessment but hadn't thought of that angle to "follow reasonable instructions" therefore becoming a requirement or part of their contract. I'm nor sure they would want to go down the disciplinary route but they will have to if they want to comply.
ACESAFE  
#4 Posted : 19 April 2016 21:04:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ACESAFE

What if the staff member has a phobia of needles?
SNS  
#5 Posted : 19 April 2016 21:28:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SNS

ACESAFE wrote:
What if the staff member has a phobia of needles?


Not really seen needles in use under Occ Health. Hearing screening machine, lung function breath tester, vision chart and maybe a look in the eyes, urine sampling for chemicals from work.

All following explanation of the need for them as a protection requirement - for those being tested and for the company to meet duty of care.
stevedm  
#6 Posted : 19 April 2016 22:35:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

There are people who have issues known as 'white coat' syndrome. I have seen it a couple of times in health checks. It takes some skill to persuade the individual. The difference here is also what is mandatory requirement under COSHH etc or well person type offer. The first part would involve a visit from an OH professional to assess the risks and then implement an appropriate program. This isn't just about work related risks there are some programs I have introduced due to PTSD, rotation, specific ethnic related/community issues. So I applaud your client in taking the first step but I would suggest more involvement from OH. If you need more specific then PM me.
johnmurray  
#7 Posted : 20 April 2016 06:15:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Control the noise and dust.
You cannot force an employee to undergo an invasive, or even a minimally-invasive health examination because you have an unsafe work environment.
Of course, if you discover the employee has health problems, and very likely due to your poor environment control, I expect the carpet will be raised and the broom used?
You can't even ask about a persons health unfairly at interview stage....and don't think if we exit the EU it will improve...the EHR will still apply.
Weird. 21st century and still employers thing they can do what they like to employees.
Better in.
stevedm  
#8 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:06:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

johnmurray wrote:
Control the noise and dust.
You cannot force an employee to undergo an invasive, or even a minimally-invasive health examination because you have an unsafe work environment.
Of course, if you discover the employee has health problems, and very likely due to your poor environment control, I expect the carpet will be raised and the broom used?
You can't even ask about a persons health unfairly at interview stage....and don't think if we exit the EU it will improve...the EHR will still apply.
Weird. 21st century and still employers thing they can do what they like to employees.
Better in.


How about giving an fellow IOSH forum member some support rather than jumping on a soap box..I am sure he and all of us are aware of the issues with some employers but strange as this might seem there are good ones out there who are doing the right thing...
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:19:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

stevedm wrote:
johnmurray wrote:
Control the noise and dust.
You cannot force an employee to undergo an invasive, or even a minimally-invasive health examination because you have an unsafe work environment.
Of course, if you discover the employee has health problems, and very likely due to your poor environment control, I expect the carpet will be raised and the broom used?
You can't even ask about a persons health unfairly at interview stage....and don't think if we exit the EU it will improve...the EHR will still apply.
Weird. 21st century and still employers thing they can do what they like to employees.
Better in.


How about giving an fellow IOSH forum member some support rather than jumping on a soap box..I am sure he and all of us are aware of the issues with some employers but strange as this might seem there are good ones out there who are doing the right thing...



I think he is right about the control of noise and dust, they should be the first steps not to say I don't disagree with Occ health checks I think they are important to ensure that the control measures in place are working. Occ health is very rarely invasive unless you count urine samples. Difficult to understand why employees wouldn't want a health check.
stevedm  
#10 Posted : 20 April 2016 08:35:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

agreed but though it was a bit off to assume it isn't already being managed without the information.
boblewis  
#11 Posted : 20 April 2016 09:06:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

SNS wrote:
ACESAFE wrote:
What if the staff member has a phobia of needles?


Not really seen needles in use under Occ Health. Hearing screening machine, lung function breath tester, vision chart and maybe a look in the eyes, urine sampling for chemicals from work.

All following explanation of the need for them as a protection requirement - for those being tested and for the company to meet duty of care.


Certainly blood tests were part of our 0cc health programme in the 1970s for blood benzene so it may not be totally out of the question
Invictus  
#12 Posted : 20 April 2016 09:13:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

boblewis wrote:
SNS wrote:
ACESAFE wrote:
What if the staff member has a phobia of needles?


Not really seen needles in use under Occ Health. Hearing screening machine, lung function breath tester, vision chart and maybe a look in the eyes, urine sampling for chemicals from work.

All following explanation of the need for them as a protection requirement - for those being tested and for the company to meet duty of care.


Certainly blood tests were part of our 0cc health programme in the 1970s for blood benzene so it may not be totally out of the question



I was in Junior School!
pseudonym  
#13 Posted : 20 April 2016 09:55:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
pseudonym

I've certainly seen loads of needles - lead in blood coming as a requirement of the Control of Lead at Work regs for instance.
However the query is what if an employee refuses - well there may be an alternative test eg urine etc which would need to equally acceptable under whatever regulations / regulatory regime - you might ask for proof of being unable to face needles as there would be additional costs involved in taking different sample matrices for some employees, but could be done in principle for some analytes.
It really comes down to whether or not the test is 'legally required' or not, if it is - well its a legal requirement. If you can eliminate the hazard exposure - then you should already have done / tried that; if you cant - and its a legal requirement - its the LAW!
johnmurray  
#14 Posted : 20 April 2016 13:15:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

"I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire"

Doesn't say any control measures are in place....
Just "trying to do the right thing"
The "right" thing would be control noise and dust adequately.....then check as to whether the CONTROL measures work.
I suspect that the "right" thing in this case is a cheap measure to weed-out any potential problem employees..
And in several of the times I have had OccH offer health checks, they tend to slap a medical records consent form in front of me for access to medical records....
(anyone who thinks spirometry is non-invasive....)
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#15 Posted : 20 April 2016 14:28:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

johnmurray wrote:
"I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire"

Doesn't say any control measures are in place....
Just "trying to do the right thing"
The "right" thing would be control noise and dust adequately.....then check as to whether the CONTROL measures work.
I suspect that the "right" thing in this case is a cheap measure to weed-out any potential problem employees..
And in several of the times I have had OccH offer health checks, they tend to slap a medical records consent form in front of me for access to medical records....
(anyone who thinks spirometry is non-invasive....)


Wow, just wow are you Union Rep by any chance? (see that's me making an assumption based on little to no evidence).
johnmurray  
#16 Posted : 21 April 2016 10:56:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Mr.Flibble2.0 wrote:
johnmurray wrote:
"I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire"

Doesn't say any control measures are in place....
Just "trying to do the right thing"
The "right" thing would be control noise and dust adequately.....then check as to whether the CONTROL measures work.
I suspect that the "right" thing in this case is a cheap measure to weed-out any potential problem employees..
And in several of the times I have had OccH offer health checks, they tend to slap a medical records consent form in front of me for access to medical records....
(anyone who thinks spirometry is non-invasive....)


Wow, just wow are you Union Rep by any chance? (see that's me making an assumption based on little to no evidence).



Funnily enough: No, I'm not a union rep.
I made an assessment based on historical knowledge of both general HS& welfare custom and the general attitude of members of this profession. Most of who seem more into ego-protection rather than employee protection?

And the unions do a better job of protecting their members than many H&S practitioners do at protecting employees!

chris.packham  
#17 Posted : 21 April 2016 12:09:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

Firstly, consider when and where health surveillance is required. In this context the first action should be to consult the sixth edition of the ACoP for COSHH which set new conditions where health surveillance becomes mandatory. Start with paragraph 237. Note that even if your organisation has not experienced any skin problems and you are pretty certain you have adequately controlled any relevant exposure if other organisations similar to your have had health issues then health surveillance becomes mandatory.

It is then a duty of the employee to comply. Having discussed the question of refusal with an eminent lawyer in a situation where employees had refused, their view was that in allowing this the employee was conniving at a breach of the Health and Safety at Work Act and that any disclaimer document would not be considered to have any validity were it to come to a prosecution or claim for compensation.

So regardless of the obvious emphasis on controlling exposure health surveillance may be mandatory. If it comes to biological monitoring Dr. Kate Jones at HSL is my first and excellent source of advice and guidance. Except for blood monitoring I have yet to encounter needles being used.

Chris
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#18 Posted : 21 April 2016 13:55:16(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

johnmurray wrote:
Mr.Flibble2.0 wrote:
johnmurray wrote:
"I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire"

Doesn't say any control measures are in place....
Just "trying to do the right thing"
The "right" thing would be control noise and dust adequately.....then check as to whether the CONTROL measures work.
I suspect that the "right" thing in this case is a cheap measure to weed-out any potential problem employees..
And in several of the times I have had OccH offer health checks, they tend to slap a medical records consent form in front of me for access to medical records....
(anyone who thinks spirometry is non-invasive....)


Wow, just wow are you Union Rep by any chance? (see that's me making an assumption based on little to no evidence).



Funnily enough: No, I'm not a union rep.
I made an assessment based on historical knowledge of both general HS& welfare custom and the general attitude of members of this profession. Most of who seem more into ego-protection rather than employee protection?

And the unions do a better job of protecting their members than many H&S practitioners do at protecting employees!



So in your mind everyone is tared with the same brush, has ulterior motives and are guilty unless proven innocent. That's a fantastic attitude to have in 2016!
bob youel  
#19 Posted : 21 April 2016 19:20:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

And I advise that U give a factual report examining the problem e.g. HSWA etc. to HR to handle thereafter as that is what they are paid for
johnmurray  
#20 Posted : 22 April 2016 09:13:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Mr.Flibble2.0 wrote:
johnmurray wrote:
Mr.Flibble2.0 wrote:
johnmurray wrote:
"I have a client who is trying to do the right thing and offer Occupational Health checks for working in a noisy & dusty environment so intending to carry out lung function, hearing tests and skin checks as well as general health questionnaire"

Doesn't say any control measures are in place....
Just "trying to do the right thing"
The "right" thing would be control noise and dust adequately.....then check as to whether the CONTROL measures work.
I suspect that the "right" thing in this case is a cheap measure to weed-out any potential problem employees..
And in several of the times I have had OccH offer health checks, they tend to slap a medical records consent form in front of me for access to medical records....
(anyone who thinks spirometry is non-invasive....)


Wow, just wow are you Union Rep by any chance? (see that's me making an assumption based on little to no evidence).



Funnily enough: No, I'm not a union rep.
I made an assessment based on historical knowledge of both general HS& welfare custom and the general attitude of members of this profession. Most of who seem more into ego-protection rather than employee protection?

And the unions do a better job of protecting their members than many H&S practitioners do at protecting employees!



So in your mind everyone is tared with the same brush, has ulterior motives and are guilty unless proven innocent. That's a fantastic attitude to have in 2016!


I note the tarring is not one-sided..
The employee can refuse the checks of course, and after that it is a "HR" matter, but there are problems with using threats of dismissal....
Then the employee has a right of access to both report and conclusions....never forgetting requirements for confidentiality (and even more so if the report contains clinical data) (confidentiality seems something that many employers consider optional...)
I quite favour the procedure, as it frequently leads to an improvement in working conditions (something many employers regard with horror) and may also lead to compensation for existing unlawful conditions.....as I said: employees have access to the report.
I just regard the "if we think it's best everyone has to comply or else" attitude as, at best, unhelpful.
I also note the original post said nothing about controlling anything....or any previous or present attempt to so do..
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