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David Thomas  
#1 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:00:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

With Section 7b of the Health and Safety at Work Act stating “it shall be the duty of every employee while at work as regards any duty or requirement imposed on his employer or any other person by or under any of the relevant statutory provisions, to co-operate with him so far as is necessary to enable that duty or requirement to be performed or complied with” can an employee insist that they are pre warned of any observational monitoring by an employer. This is especially of interest in the domestic waste collection industry where management needs to have assurance that teams working remotely are working safely. With the level of risk ‘high’ my argument is that it should be in the armory of management to use where and when appropriately. I would welcome any comments , case studies or advice in this area. With H&S paramount is there any other legislation/case law where employers are prohibited from such actions. I have been told by HR colleagues (MCIPD) that there are human rights issues around secretly ‘spying’ on employees. Many thanks
walker  
#2 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:40:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

It always bothers me when I see a h&s person quote the law. Make sure the gangs are aware that they wil be monitored at any time. Then do it Tell your HR to keep its nose out. Your organisation has a clear duty to supervise and manage
David Thomas  
#3 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:43:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

Walker.. thanks.. and I don't like having to quote the law - that may sum up frustration with HR!.... however I have been doing it for years and concur with your view....
walker  
#4 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:46:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

"Laws are for the guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools." (Solon, the Lawmaker of Athens, d. 559 BC)
walker  
#5 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:51:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

David, Your HR sound like they are getting their advice on human rights from a bloke they were talking to in the pub Ours are just as bad I think they all go to a special school for air heads The quote wasn't aimed at you.
David Thomas  
#6 Posted : 12 May 2016 18:53:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

They keep quoting rules on 'covert' and 'overt' coverage as issued by information commissioner :(
A Brown  
#7 Posted : 12 May 2016 19:23:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
A Brown

The difference may be in the definition of 'Supervision' and 'surveilence', but if a supervisor is seen to supervise, surely HR should be happy? If a supervisor arrives on site, sees how things are going, checks on compliance and generally supervises, I'm not sure where the problem would be. It would also get mobile teams used to spot checks which should improve compliance. I've previously (when still an HSE inspector) suggested that a supervisor could phone and ask roofers to text them a photo of their anchor points / scaffolding etc within 2 minutes and record the outcome as a compliance check. as long s the workers know this system is being introduced, what is the issue? It might be an issue if you introduce it without warning / consultation, of course. Do HR think 'their' legal duties trump the H&S ones? (probably!) Al
walker  
#8 Posted : 12 May 2016 20:05:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Assume the information commissioner is to do with the data protection act and maybe there is a human rights issue about snooping on folks e mails. Which may be fair enough Sounds like they have their little HR knickers in a twist ( and that's just the blokes!)
David Thomas  
#9 Posted : 12 May 2016 20:43:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

A Brown.. Thanks, yes part of my role is unannounced spot checks, refuse vehicles randomly in our district. Although some good compliance I have seen crews act irresponsibly right outside my front door - so believe spot checks are appropriate.
pete48  
#10 Posted : 12 May 2016 23:05:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

My thoughts and comments are: “can an employee insist that they are pre warned of any observational monitoring by an employer”. If you mean do you need the prior permission of employees to carry out specific unannounced spot checks as part of your supervision arrangements then the answer is no. Good practice, of course, is that such arrangements are explicit and described in your practice/procedures. Employees should understand that it will happen, why it is done and what will be done with the findings. They do not have any right to know when they will be carried out. Test of reasonableness is that it is a critical measure to adequately maintain the H&S of employees and members of the public; adequate supervision being a key part of any SSOW. However, if you mean more systematic monitoring / surveillance of the workplace (CCTV or video, GPS tracking, monitoring phones etc) then the DPA and HRA will come more into play as suggested by your HR people (who are professionals in their sector let’s remember). The right to privacy (article 8 of HRA) is a qualified right. An employer is permitted to monitor employees provided they make their intentions clear and that they have good cause to do this. I think, as OSH people, we might argue OSH is ‘good cause’? However, monitoring and surveillance of staff may, if excessive or disproportionate to the employer’s needs, be a breach of the Article 8 right to privacy. Before setting up any systematic surveillance/ monitoring employers are required by the Information Commission to consult staff and make their policy clear to all. Maybe this second aspect is what HR thinks you are discussing whereas you are talking about simple supervision activity? Either way provided that the process and purpose is explicit then there should not be a problem provided proper controls are in place..
pete48  
#11 Posted : 13 May 2016 08:05:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

I missed one para from response as I pasted onto the forum last night. Covert surveillance is permissible but it should never be undertaken lightly. The Information Commissioner’s Office says such action should only be carried out if there are grounds to suspect criminal activity or serious malpractice is being undertaken by the employee(s) in question. So it may be that you have suspicions of serious malpractice (e.g. not working safely; putting themselves and the public at risk) and want to gather evidence to confirm that suspicion. However, by definition that would be specific to an employee or team and not to the employees generally.
Andrew W Walker  
#12 Posted : 13 May 2016 08:18:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

I found this when I was looking at this issue. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4470 Andy
David Thomas  
#13 Posted : 13 May 2016 20:40:32(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

Many thanks all - yes supervision not surveillance and I am sure that my colleague is including everything as one.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 14 May 2016 10:41:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I would prefer to call it 'monitoring' as 'surveillance' implies a covert operation with or without recording equipment. As others have said, HR are talking their usual nonsense - where do these people come from? Monitoring the performance of personnel is all part of a management system. Checks can be made announced or unannounced, whichever proves the most beneficial - it's not spying and if personnel are working to the standards set by the company then they have nothing to fear.
David Thomas  
#15 Posted : 14 May 2016 12:06:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David Thomas

Ray Thanks , I am hoping that the outputs from the IOSH members survey on the perceptions of knowledge HR practitioners may also inform a broader debate and engagement with the HR profession.
johnmurray  
#16 Posted : 15 May 2016 11:00:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

walker  
#17 Posted : 16 May 2016 10:46:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

David Thomas wrote:
Ray Thanks , I am hoping that the outputs from the IOSH members survey on the perceptions of knowledge HR practitioners may also inform a broader debate and engagement with the HR profession.
Arguing with HR can be time consuming and mentally draining. "Never wrestle with a pig, you'll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it." I'm sure somewhere there are HR people with something between their ears, its just I've never encountered them.
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