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At the moment there are pressures within the EU for change. These are partly driven by the problems with the immigrant crisis, but also in several EU countries, including Germany, Denmark and The Netherlands, there are significant pressure groups calling for a change towards less intrusion and more democracy. With this in view why are we now, on the even of possible significant change, deciding whether to stay or walk away?
What would be the situation if we did leave the EU, then find that it changes to be something that we wanted to belong to? Would the EU be happy to take us back and on what terms. What do you think the chances would be of getting a rebate again? In my opinion our timing can only be described as stupid.
Chris
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chris.packham wrote:At the moment there are pressures within the EU for change. These are partly driven by the problems with the immigrant crisis, but also in several EU countries, including Germany, Denmark and The Netherlands, there are significant pressure groups calling for a change towards less intrusion and more democracy. With this in view why are we now, on the even of possible significant change, deciding whether to stay or walk away?
What would be the situation if we did leave the EU, then find that it changes to be something that we wanted to belong to? Would the EU be happy to take us back and on what terms. What do you think the chances would be of getting a rebate again? In my opinion our timing can only be described as stupid.
Chris
Chris we've managed so well in the few hundred prior to the EU, Why would we have a problem? The EU needs us more than we need them, so i can't see companies in the EU going bust because they can't buy their products from the UK,
So on that aspect we're cool. We need to find our Balls and Spine and start doing things for ourselves for a change, like our forefathers did, and not let some corrupt union dictate to us what we need to be doing.
What lift do we have in the EU, already we're know as the dustbin of Europe, you don't need to do extra history lessons to know that the French and the Germans have never really been true friends to England, All they want is our money and they want more!!, Already we're paying 350 million a week, thats half what we spen on education, Two weeks and that the whole education Budget given away.
They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment. It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently and they are the cause of the problems at Port Talbot, How much have we had from the EU because of that?? ZERO!
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Rank: Super forum user
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chris.packham wrote:At the moment there are pressures within the EU for change. These are partly driven by the problems with the immigrant crisis, but also in several EU countries, including Germany, Denmark and The Netherlands, there are significant pressure groups calling for a change towards less intrusion and more democracy. With this in view why are we now, on the even of possible significant change, deciding whether to stay or walk away?
What would be the situation if we did leave the EU, then find that it changes to be something that we wanted to belong to? Would the EU be happy to take us back and on what terms. What do you think the chances would be of getting a rebate again? In my opinion our timing can only be described as stupid.
Chris
Article 50(5) of the Treaty on the European Union allows for a departed member state to join the union again. Unfortunately, it requires unanimous approval by all member states.
It matters not what anyone thinks, once the government of the UK informs the EU that the UK has decided to leave, the procedure is as set-out in article 50 and starts the negotiation of a withdrawal agreement, and the start of any negotiation on any future agreement between UK and EU.
Note that while only a QUALIFIED MAJORITY of states are required to negotiate any trade agreements, those agreements HAVE to be accepted by a unanimous vote of all remaining member states. And within two years of notification of departure.
If you seriously think that unanimous approval would be given......
The problem is that a large proportion of the population seem to think that saying "goodbye" and walking out, to carry-on trading as usual after, is what will happen. It won't.
ANY trade agreements with the EU will still carry the "four freedoms" as a necessity.
What was the other I heard...oh yes "we'll just trade with each country on its own". No; we won't. EU of nothing.
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Rank: Super forum user
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gerrysharpe wrote:
They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment. It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently and they are the cause of the problems at Port Talbot, How much have we had from the EU because of that?? ZERO!
We could have had tariffs raised against Chinese dumping. Except the conservative and ukip contingent voted it down...
The NHS no longer exists....or maybe you don't read the laws that come out of parliament...the Health and Social care reform act removed the requirement of the sec of state for health to provide healthcare....
In fact, we (as in people) are far more at risk from our own governments than from the EU....
I promise not to mention the rampant gerrymandering slowly coming out....
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johnmurray wrote:gerrysharpe wrote:
They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment. It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently and they are the cause of the problems at Port Talbot, How much have we had from the EU because of that?? ZERO!
We could have had tariffs raised against Chinese dumping. Except the conservative and ukip contingent voted it down...
The NHS no longer exists....or maybe you don't read the laws that come out of parliament...the Health and Social care reform act removed the requirement of the sec of state for health to provide healthcare....
In fact, we (as in people) are far more at risk from our own governments than from the EU....
I promise not to mention the rampant gerrymandering slowly coming out....
John, What have the Remain camp promised us?? if we remain?? All i hear is how bad we'll end up High Interest rates, World War 3, Recession, All doom and Gloom, but has anyone actually said anything good about if we stay?? and i don't mean 75 Million Turks given the right to come over as they please, and work etc....
I do love that word "gerrymandering"
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They need us more than we need them?
Consider
Over 40% of our foreign trade, i.e. our income, comes from the EU
Around 15% of their foreign trade comes from the EU's trade with us.
If we were both to lose 25% of our trade with them what would this mean to our total 'income' from foreign trade?
If they were to lose 25% of their trade with us how hard would it hit any single country within the EU?
It is a simple equation. We need them more than they need us.
Chris
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The debate here, based on principles, is thought-provoking. This is the second-biggest vote I'm likely to cast and what some of you have posted has made me think hard. Any of you throwing facts around though, please at least do 5 seconds of checking. Dodgy facts (on both sides) always makes me distrust whoever serves them up...
gerrysharpe wrote: Already we're paying 350 million a week, thats half what we spen on education, Two weeks and that the whole education Budget given away.
350 million is a fraction of what the UK spends on Education *every week*, let alone annually as it seems you imply with the "Two weeks and.." point. UK Education budget is upwards of 90 Billion.
gerrysharpe wrote:They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment.
Are you mixing this up with the report that the total UK contribution may rise *by nearly £400 million per year*? The figure was £384 million, so the £350 million would rise to £357 million, if it went through unchallenged, unrebated, etc. If you do mean £400 million per week, where can we read about this?
Not picking on you, Gerry, just want people to question things they take as "facts".
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gerrysharpe wrote:
John, What have the Remain camp promised us?? if we remain?? All i hear is how bad we'll end up High Interest rates, World War 3, Recession, All doom and Gloom, but has anyone actually said anything good about if we stay?? and i don't mean 75 Million Turks given the right to come over as they please, and work etc....
Exactly. The remain camp's argument is solely unproven doom and what-ifs and maybes. I have concluded they haven't yet actually thought of a good reason to stay, only a vague (but apparently overwhelming) fear of the unknown if we leave, and fear of the unknown is rarely a good reason for doing (or not doing) something, in my opinion.
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But then the leave campaign say the everything would be rosey if we left, with no evidence that any money 'saved' would be spent on the NHS or education. I'd be my house nothing like that amount will make its way to education or health.
The leave campaign say 75 Million Turks coming over, is just not true, they can't come here. They can't come to the EU to work, that's the deal, listen to the news, not the propaganda (a good cockney look).
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Chris we've managed so well in the few hundred prior to the EU, Why would we have a problem? The EU needs us more than we need them, so i can't see companies in the EU going bust because they can't buy their products from the UK,
So on that aspect we're cool. We need to find our Balls and Spine and start doing things for ourselves for a change, like our forefathers did, and not let some corrupt union dictate to us what we need to be doing.
What lift do we have in the EU, already we're know as the dustbin of Europe, you don't need to do extra history lessons to know that the French and the Germans have never really been true friends to England, All they want is our money and they want more!!, Already we're paying 350 million a week, thats half what we spen on education, Two weeks and that the whole education Budget given away.
They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment. It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently and they are the cause of the problems at Port Talbot, How much have we had from the EU because of that?? ZERO!
Some interesting points made, I too would be interested in the source of your figures. 50 million, in the grand scheme of things, would not go very far to "save our NHS, Schools and Employment".
I'm not sure what relevance your comment about France and Germany being true friends of England are. England is not a member of the EU.
You mention the Syrian Crisis. I wonder if you have a problem with one of the largest humanitarian crises in recent times. Do you not think we should be helping those in need?
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gerrysharpe wrote:johnmurray wrote:gerrysharpe wrote:
They want to raise this to 400 Million a week to cope with the Syrian Crisis do we really need to do this or do we need to save our NHS, Schools and Employment. It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently and they are the cause of the problems at Port Talbot, How much have we had from the EU because of that?? ZERO!
We could have had tariffs raised against Chinese dumping. Except the conservative and ukip contingent voted it down...
The NHS no longer exists....or maybe you don't read the laws that come out of parliament...the Health and Social care reform act removed the requirement of the sec of state for health to provide healthcare....
In fact, we (as in people) are far more at risk from our own governments than from the EU....
I promise not to mention the rampant gerrymandering slowly coming out....
John, What have the Remain camp promised us?? if we remain?? All i hear is how bad we'll end up High Interest rates, World War 3, Recession, All doom and Gloom, but has anyone actually said anything good about if we stay?? and i don't mean 75 Million Turks given the right to come over as they please, and work etc....
I do love that word "gerrymandering"
I'm leaning towards leaving, but you just might make me change my mind, you present 'facts' with nothing to substantiate them, it makes you look like some sort of social media bigot, who would be more at home on Facebook, so before you post any more tripe why don't you answer some of the queries?
When and where did Adenauer say that because Germany lost the military fight twice, the only way to win in Europe was to dominate economically?
How exactly will visa free travel for 'Turks' lead to 75m of them to come to the UK as they please? We are not in Schengen, this isn't about work or residency, just travel.
Who is 'they' that want £400m a week? to deal with the Syrians, I haven't seen that demand from the EU.
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gerrysharpe wrote:We also need to remember, that Turkey has secured a deal with the EU to allow free movement of its citizens, thats 75 million people that are free to roam and settle where they want and all within the law, How many do you think will come to the UK because of our Free for All benefits and Healthcare??
Already we have millions being spent by Health Tourists that leave the UK before settling their bills, Schools are at bursting point with some schools having less than 12% English born pupils.
Look at all the people that are trying to worm their way into the UK from France, this isn't being racist its being Truthful,
I did want to pick up on this. Most schools I know of, and certainly the schools that my kids attend, have much less than 12% English born pupils. What is your point with this.
This thread is like reading something in the Daily Mail.
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"It was the EU that Paid Chinese steelworkers 40 million recently"
It was paid as part of the climate change framework....to reduce emissions.
We could have had a reasonable tariff raised against Chinese steel dumping....like the US import tariff of over 500%....but the conservative and ukip contingent in the EU voted it down. Oh well..
As for UK-EU payments, or EU-UK payments:
https://fullfact.org/eur...mbership-fee-55-million/
Of course, all of British business is against EU membership:
http://news.cbi.org.uk/r...mbership-outweigh-costs/
Personally, I consider that those people who think that the UK "punches above its weight", should get out more.
Our aircraft carriers don't have aircraft, when they do..those aircraft onboard will cost more than the carrier!! (and they're made abroad) (like an awful lot of what we consume)
If you seriously think the UK gov will reinvest the EU £250 million/week in hospitals...you clearly need a brain transplant...the gov is reducing spending on health irrespective of whether there is money available or not.
http://www.kingsfund.org...spending-internationally
They spend more than us on health anyway.....
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An with one very small exception all our motor car manufacture is owned by the Japanese and Indians, much of our electricity generating capacity is owned by the Germans and French, much of our water and waste water treatment is owned by the French, our pharmaceutical companies are largely foreign owned. Much of the foreign investment was because (a) we speak English and (b) we are part of the single European market.
Someone said to me the other day they felt it was like: I don't like the subscription to the glolf club, nor the rules, so I am not going to pay my membership fee any more, nor play by the club rules, but I still expect to be allowed to use the course.
So we raise two fingers to the EU, then expect them to roll over and give us what we ask for? Due to their own separatist problem the Spanish government has already stated that they will veto any application after we leave to have access to the single European market.
Chris
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Yet another vote to be decided on rhetoric alone I'm afraid....
I'm a fairly solid remain voter, but then I don't read the Daily Mail, and was probably swayed by looking at the major figures of the Leave campaign alone. ;)
I have since then read fullfact.org, checked out the admittedly limited level of detail available, seen that both sides are spinning the statistics (albeit I consider the Leave group to be a true circus act in this regard), but not seen anything that, on balance, has changed my mind.
The argument for greater control over our borders is the closest I can come to a reason to even considering exit - but since our fairly right wing current Govn. can't even currently control non-EU immigration, I see no genuine plan for change in that regard that doesn't resort to hope and little else.
I tire of unsupported statements which reveal little more than the speakers inability to Google.
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The thing I find hilarious / tragic about listening to the "Brexit" group is, the same people who claim we're strong enough to go it alone and are fed up of being dictated to by a governing body that doesn't represent the will of the people in this country, are the same people who argued against Scottish independence on those same terms.
Guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
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chris.packham wrote:An with one very small exception all our motor car manufacture is owned by the Japanese and Indians, much of our electricity generating capacity is owned by the Germans and French, much of our water and waste water treatment is owned by the French, our pharmaceutical companies are largely foreign owned. Much of the foreign investment was because (a) we speak English and (b) we are part of the single European market.
Someone said to me the other day they felt it was like: I don't like the subscription to the glolf club, nor the rules, so I am not going to pay my membership fee any more, nor play by the club rules, but I still expect to be allowed to use the course.
So we raise two fingers to the EU, then expect them to roll over and give us what we ask for? Due to their own separatist problem the Spanish government has already stated that they will veto any application after we leave to have access to the single European market.
Chris
Quite. And Spain is one of the "qualified majority".
As I've said. Once notice of intent to leave is given, the procedure to be followed is already set-out.
Still, there are two years for folks to get started reading the procedure for importing into the EU, and the tariffs.
http://ec.europa.eu/trad...ort-into-eu/index_en.htm
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"Guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander"
Brexit: The art of having ones cake, eating same cake, and storing same cake until hunger sets in.
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