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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 24 May 2016 15:40:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Interesting scenario, for me it is anyway. Property developer employs a contractor to carry out building work, refurbishing and new build, domestic property, houses and flats. The contractor is a one man band and has no employees. He enlists the help of self employed tradesman who are sole traders with no employees. They work together to successfully complete good projects. The same people work on every project and have done for some years. All construction work comes under CDM 2015 Having no employees means they do not need H&S Policies. No employees means they do not need to write their risk assessments. Some of their work is Notifiable. I can foresee visitors to site asking questions: Can I see your health and safety policy ? Can I see your risk assessments ? I would like your observations please.
Jimothy999  
#2 Posted : 24 May 2016 15:54:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jimothy999

CDM applies so regardless of the size of the contractors involved, the principal contractor is obliged to create a construction phase plan for H&S. If no principal contractor has been appointed this duty defaults back to the client.
PIKEMAN  
#3 Posted : 24 May 2016 15:55:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

My understanding that for the purposes of HASAW etc "in your employment" does not mean that you pay them - but that you control their work. For example, club members and volunteers are "employed" without being paid. Why not knock up some RAs - you don't have to put your name to them, just make them practicable.
James Robinson  
#4 Posted : 24 May 2016 16:02:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
James Robinson

The visitors are the property developers, not the contractors. So I would expect the property developer to have some form of agreement with the contractors; - if visitors turn up let them in/don't let them in/make them read and sign this/call me and make them wait/etc.
firesafety101  
#5 Posted : 24 May 2016 16:06:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

pikeman wrote:
My understanding that for the purposes of HASAW etc "in your employment" does not mean that you pay them - but that you control their work. For example, club members and volunteers are "employed" without being paid. Why not knock up some RAs - you don't have to put your name to them, just make them practicable.
Interesting reply Pikeman. Do you think the contractor should have a H&S Policy then.
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 24 May 2016 16:19:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

James Robinson wrote:
The visitors are the property developers, not the contractors. So I would expect the property developer to have some form of agreement with the contractors; - if visitors turn up let them in/don't let them in/make them read and sign this/call me and make them wait/etc.
James, the visitors I am thinking of are HSE Inspector, Site H&S Inspector, maybe even the FRS. There will be control of visitors.
jontyjohnston  
#7 Posted : 24 May 2016 16:33:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jontyjohnston

Have to agree with Jimoth999. If its CDM there needs to be a health & safety plan, which should include an assessment of the risk. The property developer (Client) employs a contractor, who enlists the help (one would assume for money) of self employed tradesmen.......contractual and legal obligations there I would suggest. Macro v micro project model.
ke5283  
#8 Posted : 26 May 2016 15:56:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ke5283

Besides the requirement for a construction phase plan, I would argue that even though each person is a sole trader with no employees, their work processes will more than than likely be affecting more than 5 persons on site as a collective. On that basis I think RA's should be provided.
boblewis  
#9 Posted : 26 May 2016 21:45:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

The taxman is getting a lot stricter with the definition of employee v self employed. If another tells you what to do, when to do it and what materials to use then you are an employee NOT a self employed contractor. At this point the problem dissolves into irrelevance as the PC is now an employer of more than 5 people
A Brown  
#10 Posted : 26 May 2016 23:32:14(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
A Brown

I remember I submitted a case to the PF where a company director removed asbestos from one of his properties (a former Woolworths store), assisted by self employed friend. His company existed only to own commercial properties, and the directors did not have agreements in place, so were not employees in a legal sense. All 'work' relating to the management of the properties was taken care of by sub contracted property mangement company on their behalf. It was a hugely complicated case from legal point of view to prove who had breached a duty they held (very simple case factually!) Not helped by the difficulties in corroborating evidence etc. In the end the PF brought charge (For the first time in legal history I believe) against a company with a common law offence of reckless and culpable behaviour for exposing its director and another person to asbestos. It was changed by the PF to charge the company but as there are no employees there could be no health and safety charge. PF decided to use a decision following the Tranco explosion in Larkhall to allow companies to be charged with common law offences. The director (I Understand) preferred this to a charge against him as an individual. I can't recall all the details now, but it was hard work, and took long time to go through the courts! Al
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 27 May 2016 10:04:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Bob, I know that to be true from many years ago working for a construction company but it was the finance department that dealt with it at the time. As it is a different area to health and safety should the H&S consultant be getting involved in that area and advising the "employer" in something the H&S bod is not qualified.
aud  
#12 Posted : 27 May 2016 14:48:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

There are very specific definitions of 'employer', 'employee' , and - quite relevant - the concept of 'undertaking'. Volunteers BTW are 'other people' and not legally employees - s3 v s2) Section 53 (1) HSWA contains the following definitions: "employee" -is "an individual who works under a contract of employment. "self-employed person" is "an individual who works for gain or reward otherwise than under a contract of employment, whether or not he himself employs others"; If there are less than 5 employees, HASAWA is clear. Whether that might not be 'best' in principle does not change the legal situation of 'no need to record' at that level. It is worth looking at HSE pages http://www.hse.gov.uk/en...sc/identifying/index.htm to see the definitions and differences for enforcement purposes. This includes sub-contracted labour, agency and other workers - too much to go into here. There is no specific definition from HSAWA or HSE pages of 'business' but HMRC do have a take on this, and it is probably more definitive that the 'gain or reward' above. HMRC talk about 'active trading' and invoicing, as example evidence of trading, and a summary is given here relating to tax law. Trade". The term is “commonly used to denote operations of a commercial character by which the trader provides to customers for reward some kind of goods or services" as opposed to investment activities. Business is defined more broadly than trade. Whilst a trade is a business, not all businesses are trades. To quote Lord Diplock “the word “business” is an etymological chameleon; it suits its meaning to the context in which it is found”.
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