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simon73  
#1 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:15:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simon73

This is set to be on of the longest Ramadans for many years. Muslims will not eat or drink water during daylight, which this year can last about 19 hours in the UK.
I would be interested in hearing how the welfare of workers undertaking Ramadan could be supported/improved.

Does anyone have helpful suggestions for ensuring the health safety and well being of colleagues who are undertaking Ramadan.
Binniem  
#2 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:31:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Binniem

It's a weird one, but can you legally enforce eating food and drinking water whilst at work? regardless of religious views, ceremonies, fad diets etc, I just don't believe it's something we should be interfering with.

You'd then have to ensure that all staff ate a certain amount of food or drank a certain amount of water so as not to discriminate.

Can of worms!
Ron Hunter  
#3 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:37:57(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

There isn't much out there in the way of guidance. ACAS published something in 2013 (still valid).

Flexibility, tolerance, understanding.
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:40:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

WatsonD  
#5 Posted : 06 June 2016 15:47:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

I would begin with asking a few questions to find out if there is anything I/ the company could do to support. Those who are taking part in Ramadan will mostly be those who have undertaken this in the past. They will know what they go through, and what could help them during this period.

Making decisions on others behalf - no matter how good the intention - without bothering to include those directly affected, will always create bad feeling.

Also I found this, item 8 is especially pertinent: http://www.vox.com/2016/...amadan-2016-muslim-about
simon73  
#6 Posted : 06 June 2016 16:08:12(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simon73

Binniem wrote:
It's a weird one, but can you legally enforce eating food and drinking water whilst at work? regardless of religious views, ceremonies, fad diets etc,


No and that was not the point of the question at all.
simon73  
#7 Posted : 06 June 2016 16:15:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simon73

WatsonD wrote:
I would begin with asking a few questions to find out if there is anything I/ the company could do to support. Those who are taking part in Ramadan will mostly be those who have undertaken this in the past. They will know what they go through, and what could help them during this period.

Making decisions on others behalf - no matter how good the intention - without bothering to include those directly affected, will always create bad feeling.

Also I found this, item 8 is especially pertinent: http://www.vox.com/2016/...amadan-2016-muslim-about


Really helpful link thanks Watson D
andygser  
#8 Posted : 07 June 2016 14:52:34(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
andygser

I once had a very devout worker who asked to be placed on night shift as this would help him. I'm sure that when you ask, people will know what help, if anything, they need from their employer.
Ateeka  
#9 Posted : 09 June 2016 13:23:33(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ateeka

I'm a Muslim and have fasted every year for a very long time.
Most Muslims will be accustomed to fasting and know how their bodies react.
WatsonD that's a very good article and gives you some very useful information. The only bit I'd add is be mindful not to organise lunch and breakfast meetings as most Muslims don't mind but its not nice watching everyone eating when you can't :-(
I'd ask individuals what you can do to assist them, some may request if they could start later as there is an additional prayer after sunset which can take quite some time to complete, so you don't get as much sleep.
Lethargy is the biggest hurdle, you do find that as the day goes on you do become exhausted and performance can suffer a little but most Muslims are used to it and are not affected.
After the first couple of fast you fall into a routine and before you know it the month is over.

If you do have any questions queries around Ramadan please do ask and I'd be happy to help.
Gunner1  
#10 Posted : 09 June 2016 14:17:09(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

Sec. 7/8 could apply? - taking care of the Health and Safety of yourself and others that may be affected by acts or omissions? Lack of food / sleep etc. can lead to impaired ability to work safely so planning / even risk assessments for work activity of the individuals concerned could be required?
simon73  
#11 Posted : 09 June 2016 14:28:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
simon73

Thanks Ateeka for some great suggestions on how non Muslims can support Muslims whilst fasting.
I am of the opinion that communication can only increase understanding and break down 'health and safety myths'.
Invictus  
#12 Posted : 09 June 2016 14:37:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Lethargy is the biggest hurdle, you do find that as the day goes on you do become exhausted and performance can suffer a little'

That's me and I'm not a Muslim
6foot4  
#13 Posted : 09 June 2016 14:40:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
6foot4

Ateeka wrote:
The only bit I'd add is be mindful not to organise lunch and breakfast meetings as most Muslims don't mind but its not nice watching everyone eating when you can't :-(


I appreciate your opinion, but I'm unclear regarding what the health and safety related issues are in this regard? Also, should this extend to meetings where beverages such as coffee, tea, water and biscuits are served? This is fairly routine for many of the meetings that I attend, and in warm summer months, hydration should be encouraged and it is often quite helpful for those moving between meetings and needing to grab a drink, or even a nibble to be accommodated in this way.

My overriding feeling is that nobody is forced to fast, it is a religious choice. If a person's resolve or faith is going to be tested, is it down to others to change or for that person to consider what they can tolerate within the boundaries of their faith? It might be that they seek to be excused if they cannot face seeing other people eating and drinking in the workplace. I think that in many working environments this is going to be unavoidable - people often eat and drink at their desks, so why should they be prevented from doing so as normal during meetings, which is accepted practice? I'm sure there are many other areas which could be a test to the faith or might even be perceived as offensive. I'm just not certain how much can be changed in a society that currently tolerates certain behaviours and practices which could be at odds with the beliefs of others and to therefore accommodate them.
Ateeka  
#14 Posted : 09 June 2016 15:24:56(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ateeka

6foot4 wrote:


I appreciate your opinion, but I'm unclear regarding what the health and safety related issues are in this regard? Also, should this extend to meetings where beverages such as coffee, tea, water and biscuits are served? This is fairly routine for many of the meetings that I attend, and in warm summer months, hydration should be encouraged and it is often quite helpful for those moving between meetings and needing to grab a drink, or even a nibble to be accommodated in this way.
Quote:



I was just sharing my experience as someone who fasts. We all have much more than H&S experience and cover a whole host of issues which are not H&S.

You are right hydration is important and I would never advice others to abstain, trust me I have a 3 old who always wants her mum to feed her tea, and this is everyday even in Ramadan. So being around food isn't an issue. I wouldn't expect the needs of other to be changed for the needs of a few. But where possible trying to arrange meetings outside of lunchtimes and giving it an additional consideration for 30 days can go along way.

Most employers want to provide and environment which gets the best from all employees, so understanding the needs of employees assist in this.
Ian Bell2  
#15 Posted : 09 June 2016 20:17:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Whatever beliefs you may have - its for the individual concerned to ensure that they are fit and safe to work. What an individual's religious practices are is a personal matter - but shouldn't be brought to the workplace, so as to affect safety,
Bigmac1  
#16 Posted : 12 June 2016 12:45:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bigmac1

What if the work they do induces heat stress?, what do you think a judge would say if someone collapsed and died due to heat stress without being hydrated?
If you had a workforce of say 10, 5 were Muslim would you expect the 5 non Muslim workers to carry the Muslim workers for 30 days?
Would you be at a tribunal if you paid them off if they could not do the job they were paid to do?
It would interesting to hear peoples thoughts!!!
gerrysharpe  
#17 Posted : 12 June 2016 13:16:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gerrysharpe

This is where religion seems to get in the way of common sense, you are expected to allow this to happen when they say that they are feeling poorly due to not eating, and if they work in an environment where they could put themselves and the public at risk, such as Taxi Drivers, Bus Drivers etc

What do you do as an employer do you tell them not to come in for a month? Lay them off or worst case, dismissed for not being able to carry out the job they were hired for.

If you look at Jews in London, They want to Install Poles with Fishing line so that they can have greater freedom on the Sabbath ?? http://www.dailymail.co....creating-new-ghetto.html

I wonder whose fault would it be if say a taxi driver has an accident and kills the passenger who would be at fault the driver for not eating or the company for letting him drive ??

Health & Safety Comes before Religion Full stop

David Bannister  
#18 Posted : 12 June 2016 15:15:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

What on earth have Polish people fishing for Jewish people got to do with this thread?
Zyggy  
#19 Posted : 12 June 2016 20:49:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zyggy

Ron has it spot on at #3.

Where is the empirical evidence to show that fasting at Ramadan has caused major accidents or incidents?

I work for a world renowned organisation that employs many Muslims & at the start of such events we have dialogue with them about their needs, as each person is different. We also accommodate prayer sessions if necessary.

In the nearly 20 years of involvement I am not aware of any incident caused by fasting & to be frank I am more than a little sad to see such intolerance from some of the posters on this thread.
walker  
#20 Posted : 13 June 2016 08:45:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I have always thought we in the UK are generally tolerant folks
This thread makes me wonder
biker1  
#21 Posted : 13 June 2016 09:39:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

gerrysharpe wrote:
Health & Safety Comes before Religion Full stop



That depends on your perspective.
Yossarian  
#22 Posted : 13 June 2016 10:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Yossarian

biker1 wrote:
gerrysharpe wrote:
Health & Safety Comes before Religion Full stop



That depends on your perspective.


Remind me of Lord Atkin's comments on Donoghue v Stevenson again?
firesafety101  
#23 Posted : 13 June 2016 10:32:38(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Forgive me but you are all making a meal of this. Pun intended.

It is a religious thing and we should not single out anyone because of their religion.

Why not let it flow and if problems arise deal with them at the time.

As said above the individuals all know what they are doing so let them get on with it.
watcher  
#24 Posted : 13 June 2016 10:39:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
watcher

gerrysharpe wrote:
This is where religion seems to get in the way of common sense, you are expected to allow this to happen when they say that they are feeling poorly due to not eating, and if they work in an environment where they could put themselves and the public at risk, such as Taxi Drivers, Bus Drivers etc

What do you do as an employer do you tell them not to come in for a month? Lay them off or worst case, dismissed for not being able to carry out the job they were hired for.

If you look at Jews in London, They want to Install Poles with Fishing line so that they can have greater freedom on the Sabbath ?? http://www.dailymail.co....creating-new-ghetto.html

I wonder whose fault would it be if say a taxi driver has an accident and kills the passenger who would be at fault the driver for not eating or the company for letting him drive ??

Health & Safety Comes before Religion Full stop




Quoting the Daily Mail??? It must be true :-)


RayRapp  
#25 Posted : 13 June 2016 11:08:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I was a train driver for nearly 20 years where as an individual you were required to report fit for work. If, you had reason to suspect an issue i.e. medication, the onus was on the individual to raise the matter with the duty manager prior to booking on. I cannot recall an incident due to religious reasons...have things really changed that much?

Call me intolerant if you wish.
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