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amoore  
#1 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:06:43(UTC)
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amoore

I work for a large housing association. We have several home improvement agencies and handy person services. My question is whether the small works they carry out would come under CDM 2015. Mostly the work they are doing is fitting grab rails, assembling furniture, small adaptations etc. The work is carried out in customers homes (which might be privately owned or rented). Thoughts please......
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:23:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

According to Regulation 2 of CDM 2015 'Definition of construction work' I strongly suspect some of the work will come within the ambit of construction work. That said, there are those who take the view if it looks like construction work, then it is, albeit some maintenance and repair work is not strictly construction work as we know it. It makes no difference whether the work is carried out in privately owned or rented properties because CDM 2015 includes domestic and commercial clients. Suggest you have a read of the regulations and guidance L153.
peterL  
#3 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:28:44(UTC)
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peterL

Unless the work involves 500 man hrs to complete then it's outside of the scope of CDM, looking at the work you describe I cannot see how this could be classed as construction - a handyman service certainly wouldn't be. Pete,
amoore  
#4 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:30:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
amoore

I realise its not notifiable works, but I'm wondering if we need to complete construction phase plans as we'd be defined as a contractor?
jodieclark1510  
#5 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:31:13(UTC)
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jodieclark1510

Isn't the 500 man hours with regards to notifiable works?
6foot4  
#6 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:33:37(UTC)
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6foot4

peterL wrote:
Unless the work involves 500 man hrs to complete then it's outside of the scope of CDM, looking at the work you describe I cannot see how this could be classed as construction - a handyman service certainly wouldn't be. Pete,
This statement is not correct and is bordering irresponsible. All work defined as construction regardless of duration attract duties to be fulfilled under the CDM Regs.
peterL  
#7 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:40:47(UTC)
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peterL

6Foot4 Please clarify how building firniture and fitting a handrail is construction? Pete,
MEden380  
#8 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:41:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MEden380

PeterL All construction work is within the scope of the CDM Regulations as Jodie points out it is the notification that involves 500 man days(not hours) I would look at writing a risk assessment that covers every thing they are likely to do. I would group together issues such as use of hand tools, use of power tools, use of steps or ladders, manual handling etc. I would also consider producing a SOP (Standard Operational Procedure) to cover all the work they do. This would obviously involve a bit of work to start with, that would then only need to be reviewed every so often and perhaps updated.
bigpub  
#9 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:49:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigpub

That's person days
amoore  
#10 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:50:19(UTC)
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amoore

I have in place a generic risk assessment that covers all eventualities (like those you mention MEden380), then they complete a quick site specific risk assessment for each job. I'm wondering now whether for construction work they complete the Construction Phase Plan in place of the site specific risk assessment. Its much the same information and would cover us in terms of CDM.
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 10 June 2016 11:57:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I have requested from our term contractors that a CPP is to be forwarded to us as the client for all high risk work e.g. working at height, asbestos, gas, etc. I think this is a proportionate response to an unwieldy set of regulations. Furthermore, in some cases I will request visibility of the contractor's RAMS.
peterL  
#12 Posted : 10 June 2016 12:13:38(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
peterL

MEden380 Agree all works need to be Risk Assessed under the management regs. Bigpub - I replied in haste and stand corrected The point I am making is, can you class the works, as described, as construction - I don't believe it is in this instance - a construction phase plan for minor short duration works completed by a single worker usually, this I believe would be disproportionate to the works, to clarify. Pete,
6foot4  
#13 Posted : 10 June 2016 12:19:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
6foot4

peterL wrote:
6Foot4 Please clarify how building firniture and fitting a handrail is construction? Pete,
Um, that doesn't really tie up with what you originally said. I wasn't commenting on whether the work described above is construction, but rather when the CDM Regs need to be applied. Your statement that CDM only applies if part of the threshold (500 person days, not hours) is incorrect. It applies to all construction work regardless of duration. I agree with RayRapp's comments above in relation to how the CDM Regs might be of relevance to the work described. Also bear in mind, that if it is deemed a "CDM site' because works fall under construction, then even the non-construction works would need to be managed in accordance with the principles outlined in the CDM Regs. Overall not a biggy.....RAMS could be updated to state "Construction Phase Plan". It gets a bit more complicated where more than one contractor will be present as this will trigger appointments of Principal Contractor and Principal Designer.
David2010  
#14 Posted : 10 June 2016 12:39:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
David2010

The HSE Construction Sector document (Q&S Briefing (8) - Construction Division - Construction(Design and Management) Regulations 2015, "An approach to interpreting if an activity is construction work") as close to a concise guide as anything I've found. It states "Q1. How do I decide if an activity is construction work? A. The definition of construction work as set out in Reg 2(1) in CDM 2015 is broad, non-exhaustive and is largely the same as it was in CDM 2007. Construction work may take place within many industry sectors and CDM will apply if the activity falls within the definition. Whilst it is not HSE’s role to provide a definitive interpretation (which only a court can do), there follows general pointers as to how it should be construed in cases of uncertainty. There are two steps to determining whether an activity falls within the definition of construction work, and therefore whether CDM 2015 applies. Step 1 – the project/activity must fall within one or more of the three categories set out in the definition, those being the carrying out of any; • building work, • civil engineering work, or • engineering construction work*. If the activity falls within any of these three categories, CDM 2015 does apply. If the activity does not fall into any of the three categories, CDM 2015 does not apply and Step 2 is not relevant. Step 2 - If the activity falls into one of the three main categories, then the list of specific construction activities in (a) - (e) are relevant and provide the second stage to determining if an activity is construction work. When considering (a) – (e), note that the activities in each relate to specific actions in respect of a structure within the project, and should not be considered as interchangeable. There may be activities similar to those listed which may be considered, but they should be seen in the context of the functions, and not just ‘made to fit’. (a) the construction, alteration, conversion, fitting out, commissioning, renovation, repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water or an abrasive at high pressure, or the use of corrosive or toxic substances), decommissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure; This relates to activities involved with the building, alteration, upkeep etc. decommissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure. *Note: The Engineering Construction Industry Association (ECIA) sets out engineering construction work as the design, construction and maintenance of process plant across the oil and gas, water, environmental, steel and metal, cement, glass, paper, brewing and distillation, food, power generation, nuclear waste reprocessing, pharmaceutical production, petrochemical and chemical sectors. I love the bit about "it is not HSE’s role to provide a definitive interpretation (which only a court can do)"
Ron Hunter  
#15 Posted : 10 June 2016 12:48:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

amoore, the HSE are encouraging a proportionate approach by promoting the "busy builder" approach to smaller projects. The document at the link below is probably not that different from what others refer to as a site-specific assessment. Diligent completion of a CIS80 form will ensure compliance with the law. Other organisations have created their own version of CIS80 as a company template. I commend to you: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf
peterL  
#16 Posted : 10 June 2016 13:05:56(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
peterL

6Foot4 Quote the works as described by the OP; Mostly the work they are doing is fitting grab rails, assembling furniture, small adaptations etc. The work is carried out in customers homes (which might be privately owned or rented). Thoughts please...... I believe the above cannot be classed as construction. Pete,
watcher  
#17 Posted : 10 June 2016 14:10:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
watcher

peterL wrote:
6Foot4 Quote the works as described by the OP; Mostly the work they are doing is fitting grab rails, assembling furniture, small adaptations etc. The work is carried out in customers homes (which might be privately owned or rented). Thoughts please...... I believe the above cannot be classed as construction. Pete,
That's not what 6foot4 was saying though You said "...Unless the work involves 500 man hrs to complete then it's outside of the scope of CDM" I believe that this was what was challenged.
peterL  
#18 Posted : 10 June 2016 15:13:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
peterL

Watcher - fine with that, but I was trying to answer the op's question - whether CDM applied to the work as described (I believe not construction), Note; I acknowledge in post 12 I got hrs mixed up with days but to complete a CPP for fitting a handrail or building furniture would be disproportionate; to risk assess the work activity yes, definately. hope this clarifies. Pete,
IanDakin  
#19 Posted : 10 June 2016 15:44:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

Hi There have been some good answers on here and some that are wide of the mark. This is not unusual for CDM. The HSE are saying that if it involves construction materials and skills then CDM applies. Also don't forget that refurbishment works require CDM to be applied. And as CDM applies a CPP is required. But it would be fairly simple. Ian
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