Are these 'new build' apartments? In which case they should comply with current building regs & fire safety requirements. Just state in you report what assumptions have been made while under taking the FRA, and state the loft/roof were not physically inspected - for the reasons you have mentioned. It seems reasonably to me, there should be no significant fire hazards/risks in the roof spaces - electrical cables possible, but again they should be installed to current electrical requirements.

It will depend on the type of FRA. If you think there are concerns the FRA should be commissioned to include these areas, particularly to check fire stopping and compartmentation. From experience I know that there can be shortcuts in the build which are not detectable unless you lift ceiling panels, look in loft spaces.

This issue reminds me of one incident where I once worked. A block of low rise flats (4 or 5 storeys) with some 80+ families had to be evacuated. Some combustible material had been set on fire on an open landing/stairwell on the top floor. The fire lit the soffits and facia boards which were of a UPVC type material. The flames got sucked back in to the roof space and engulfed the whole roof, leading to the loss of the entire building. When I now review fire risk assessments and consider other fire related issues in buildings I am always conscious of the roof design and the material it is made of as well as the potential for fire spread and loft compartmentation. So, in my view, where possible/practicable the roof space should be considered as part of an overall assessment, not least because of the devastation that results when a fire cannot be contained. Fortunately no loss of life occurred in this particular incident.

Not if the roof space is particularly difficult to access or confined and/or has limited lighting etc. If access is insisted on, then the quote for the work might need to include for possibly ladders or some other means of access, temporary flooring/work platform in the roof space (risk of falling through the ceiling etc). Enough lighting to see what you are doing. Disturbance of asbestos materials. Then I would guess the quote for the FRA work would be refused on cost grounds. Making reasonable assumptions/pointing out exclusions is common in consultancy reports etc.

Also if you read this months IOSH magazine disturbing a bit of asbesto's is nothing to worry about.

I did read it not as mad as first thought.

From posts on here there has been talk over all sorts of electrical installations in loft areas - Solar Panel gizmo's (not sure the actual name, transformers / converters etc), with lots of huffing and puffing on this type of installation in loft areas. So not sure we should assume only lighting cables. Do residents have access to these areas ?

The issue we have is that loft hatches are in some flats so residents have decided to use them, we also have demised some in part at times. Therefore because of our stock profile we need to consider them for effective fire safety management, maybe not every year or every assessment

chas Thanks for your input. There is nothing without some risk. It really is a case of deciding whether the time and resources needed can be justified for the level of risk or whether those resources could be put to better use. Again, there will aways be a 'worst case' scenario to consider, but I am experienced enough to know this as well as not knee jerking because of it.

FYI, BS7671 now requires inspectors to access loft areas during I&T for an EICR. So, whist FRA is not my remit, I would say that if the electrical standards require the loft electrical systems to be I&T'd, then the FRA must consider the loft space also. From an engineers standpoint, I would say that it should be assessed and form part of the FRA. How can an FRA be suitable and sufficient if it does not consider all the areas that a fire could start or spread via, and then make recommendations to mitigate these.

Would you be as comfortable in applying the same logic into not inspecting a basement that was locked? IMO, the FRA cannot be considered sufficient unless the attic space is inspected. How can you assess the likelihood of fire and smoke spread and impact on means of escape and common areas without verifying the following? 1. Cavity barriers in position 2. Fire stopping in place and appropriate (including stopping upto roof covering) 3. Compartment walls continued to roof covering 4. Protection of roof spaces above protected stairs and shafts. In addition, how has the FRA addressed similar issues concerning services and fire stopping within the likes of lift shafts? etc. With regard to new builds, just because a building is newly constructed, does not mean that it automatically meets the requirements of the fire safety building regulations i.e. TGD B. (See Priory Hall Development in Dublin) As a general comment, there are sources of ignition that may be present within attic cavities other than electrical components i.e. flue pipes. The only time that I may be in a position not to justify access and evaluation of an attic space is where: 1. There are not fire resisting compartment walls likely to continue up into the attic void. 2. The attic space does not continue to a protected stair or shaft And 3. where a fire-resisting ceiling is provided below the attic cavity Regards

Just write that only the common parts have been assessed, I think we are in similar type of roles but I deal more with residential homes instead of residential propeties. If I don't gain access to areas I just put could not gain access to: office, bedroom, loft etc. and I never go home and worry about it, some residents even in care homes do not want you to go in bedrooms and we have to respec that fact.

Such a disclaimer or written limitations concerning the FRA will only provide protection against liability in Tort or Delict and ONLY if in writing and agreed prior to the execution of FRA. Such terms will not protect against liability under criminal law particularly if occupants safety is at risk due to the impact of common area or MOE due to smoke or fire as a result of inadequate fire safety measures associated with the attic space.

Ian you are correct as most fires do start in the private flat but the assessment is about preventing fire spread and protecting the other residents. If a fire in a flat can spread into the roof space then spread along that area above other flats that may cut off an escape roof below ceiling level. I did one two weeks ago and noticed a hatch, there was a ladder nearby so I took a peek into the void. The only thing in there is insulation but if there was combustible materials stored I would have to write it into my report. No sign of any electric wiring.

I recently had the opportunity during a FRA, of popping my head into a loft space in a recently new build property (social housing flats), I was doing this because the building had a L1 alarm system in which must have automatic protection in the loft area. The property was fitted with a large water tank in the loft for the sprinkler system. The firewalls in the loft space/s were not constructed to get the water tank fitted, despite being drawn on the plans. We agreed that because the property had a sprinkler system fitted the firewalls not being there were not a significant risk.

Chris42's comments at #14 remind me of an article (2 or 3 pages) I recently saw in a back copy of 'Professional Electrician' magazine (March 2016). From what I recall, the article made the point that nowadays some lofts contain various types of electrical installation, including inverters associated with solar panel systems. I think it also touched on the likelihood of safety problems, including fire hazards, associated in part with the nature and type of electrical installations plus incompetent DIY adaptations of lofts for storage or extra living space. I could only skim through the magazine during a short break at work but hope to see it again next week. However, as it might have disappeared by then, does anyone else happen to have access to a copy of the magazine and be able to look up the article to see if it contains advice which might be pertinent to this thread? The magazine also contains what appears to be a regular and fascinating double page feature "Caught On Camera" consisting of photos and text about diabolically unsafe electrical installations, mostly by ignorant DIY types, discovered by electricians during work in dwellings and workplaces. Perhaps those responsible for publishing IOSH Magazine could consider having a similar type of feature about diabolical situations spotted by OSH professionals! Graham B

Graham, I pick this up regularly at the wholesaler, it does have some gems in, I am debating writing an article for them. The caught on camera stuff is classic, the thing is none of it is unusual, a lot of the guys in my "network" have actually seen and had to correct stuff like this, and do regularly. This is why I keep banging on about the poor quality of electrical work, especially that which is bought on price.