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gramsay  
#1 Posted : 16 June 2016 14:24:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

I am having a brain fart, perhaps someone can help:

Am I right in thinking that I (as occupier of premises) have NO duties, liabilities or responsibilities regarding the way in which someone who is NOT working for me carries out their own work while on my premises?

Situation:

Third party is given the right to use land I control. The land is maintained and in good condition for the intended use. They carry out their work in a half-arsed way to a standard WAY below that which we would set to protect our workers. The only risk is to their own employees. Nothing I have done has any bearing on the risks involved. None of the work involved is construction.

I accept there's a moral duty here, and in fact a dangerous activity was stopped. My gut feeling is that anyone on our site should operate by our site rules, but on thinking about it I can't see that we actually have any responsibility here, other than to the condition of the premises and the extent to which our work activities might affect the third party (they don't). But I feel like I'm missing something...

HSAWA - I'm not the employer responsible for the risky work, and I've not engaged them to do it. The relationship if anything is like landlord and tenant.

Occupiers Liability - as above, the premises are fine and nothing I'm doing affects the third party.

So is it true that although I'd act to stop what I saw yesterday again, every time, I've no legal obligation to do so?
chas  
#2 Posted : 16 June 2016 15:51:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

I think that the degree to which you are liable/responsible depends very much on the terms of the agreement between you and the third party. You are the occupier/owner and as such will carry some of the burden of what happens on your property, unless the terms of the lease or other agreement absolves you of that burden. That is just my opinion and I am no property lawyer so I stand to be corrected.
RayRapp  
#3 Posted : 16 June 2016 16:38:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

There are very few scenarios where as a landlord and employer you do not have any responsibilities for others, however in what you describe you are probably as close as it gets to having none in my opinion.
gramsay  
#4 Posted : 16 June 2016 19:24:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

Thanks for the replys. There's no actual landlord/tenant relationship here and no employment (by us) - these third parties just make use of part of our premises as a favour to them.

Ray your comment is just what I concluded, although at first it did seem counter-intuitive to me. I'd still tell them (and have done) to stop doing something dangerous, but it was when I was about to warn management about it that I started disagreeing with myself that we had any liability here.

Management are right on it, though, and have instructed them to follow our site rules regarding lone working and work at height (the issues here).
toe  
#5 Posted : 16 June 2016 22:40:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I think it was going well until the post at #4. The minute you instruct (or engage with them) that they follow your site rules, for example lone working controls, then you form a verbal contract in which your responsibility starts to shift.
chas  
#6 Posted : 17 June 2016 08:38:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chas

Interesting. From my albeit limited knowledge of occupiers liability I am aware that the degree to which you/your company could be liable will depend very much on the amount of control you have over the third party and the level of due diligence you/your company exercised when allowing the third party to operate on your premises. The fact that you intervened and exercised some authority may have been good from a moral point of view but it may also have increased the degree of liability. As I said I am no legal eagle and defer to any solicitor's opinion that may arise from this thread.
RayRapp  
#7 Posted : 17 June 2016 10:03:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I think verbally reminding someone about poor h&s practice hardly constitutes to 'control' over them. Like all things the advice is contextual. On occasions I have advised other contractors not directly associated with my works where I think it appropriate - they can take it or leave it, no liability on my part.

The OLA is concerned with negligence on the part of the occupier, not the unsafe actions of contractor's personnel.
gramsay  
#8 Posted : 17 June 2016 10:26:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

toe, it's a good point you raise and one I've looked at before with regard to how we manage subcontractors.

The important thing here is that no instruction was given which told the third party HOW to do their work, they were just told to immediately stop doing a thing which is universally accepted as dangerous. I don't care how they do their work beyond that.

If a civil claim ever alleged that an injury they suffered was because they were unable to work the way they normally do due to my instruction I'm extremely comfortable that their argument wouldn't fly due to the very clear unacceptability of what was going on.

That's at least how I see it, but I'm prepared to learn!
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 17 June 2016 14:10:45(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Irrespective of all else a private owner/business cannot let a person who is on their land do as that person wants [e.g. they may bring asbestos on site and bury it or burn rubber tyres thus polluting the atmosphere, or start shooting firearms etc. that reach outside the boundary [the list goes on and on]] so there must be some sort of dialog between parties to ensure that the owner person/business is not put at unnecessary high risk plus section 3 of HSWA applies as do many other laws inclusive of common law & simply talking to a person on your site does not mean that U are controlling them however if U do not manage your undertaking U will be in trouble if that 3rd party does what it wants and something serious happens - so my advice is to control your land etc.
sadlass  
#10 Posted : 17 June 2016 14:27:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
sadlass

gramsey
It's not your 'undertaking'. (So no s3 applies).
s4 - control of premises MAY have some application, (as you are an employer) but landlord / occupier relationship is closest, and the control of risk is related to that which the premise may pose to users, not what they do on or in it.
If you rent a premise you have only contractual arrangements (eg who fixes the drains).
You may have a duty (not H&S) to report blatant wrong-doing - growing cannabis - but it is not your business to go and check if they are / not. And the reason you would be concerned is from damage to the premise perspective. Burying asbestos (or anything) on your land is a concern, again, from protection of assets perspective, and what any lease (you say non exists) may so - most forbid suchlike anyway.

So if all they are doing is unsafe activities - not damaging your asset - and it is not your undertaking . . end of. I agree with your initial view.

Different take with contractors obviously, and the line you have I agree with too for what that's worth.
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