I know this is like the question how long is a piece of string and do an assessment, however I am doing an assessment. I’m looking for any guidance on what is an appropriate time for how long and or distance it should take as a maximum to get to an injured person. I know it will depend on the type of injury and the Guidance (L74) uses the word quickly, and immediately, but it is not realistic to have a first aider every 2 meters. You may have large sites, or short distances but with natural obstructions or even man made obstructions ie busy road between buildings.

Has anyone come across any guidance that gives any indication of max treatment times for given potential injury types. I’m not so interested in biological or chemical issues more physical injury. Obviously safe working procedure to prevent, but if things go horribly wrong you need to have a backup, in terms of first aid provision. The types of injury that have a potential may be; crush injury from vehicle, significant cuts, possibly even amputation of finger or even hand, loss of consciousness from fall, type things I was considering.

Given the above has anyone seen any other guidance other than L74, or a view from experience on when something is too far. Possibly just info on treatment times for above injuries, in terms of effectiveness on preserving life etc.

For example
1) if you had a large site with the possible injuries noted above or
2) if you had two buildings with a busy road between and the injuries noted above possible in both buildings.

I appreciate at the end of the day it will be down to both experience of the assessor and their opinion, but formal guidance and even others opinions can be helpful especially in convincing others.

As always any help appreciated

Chris

The Resuscitation Council has figures for the impact of waiting for CPR, defib, paramedics on survival rates following cardiac arrest.

Chris

I don't think there is a ready answer for this question as there are so many variables. The response times for emergency services also varies greatly but they do their best to attend...quickly.

If no-one in the area wants to be a first aider then it is them you need to convince with facts about how long it will take for someone to get to them in an emergency from another part of the site.

You cannot force someone to do it, so there is no argument really.

In my previous companies we had the following KPI's for Medical Emergency Response


First Aid - 4 minutes to arrive on scene
Medic - 20 mins (1 hour for certain remote locations)
Medevac (transfer to hospital) - within 4 hours
Transfer to specialist hospital - casualty dependent.


This was for oil & gas companies where people may be remote or offshore.

Thanks for the further replies.

interesting numbers neil88, I have worked out that the response time is likely to be 5 minutes or more, it is unlikely to be less. I think this is too much, but take note of your 4 minute first aid time.

Steve, this is not in Wales, but is an interesting thought about emergency service times. My original thought were on initial response, but if the first aider is longer getting to the IP then the potential worse condition the IP may be in. This means the longer they have to preserve life for the now more serious condition,before the emergency services get there.

If I can't convince the Manager, plan B is I escalate it up. I just wanted to be sure, before doing so and wondered if there was any guidance on how to work it out. Odd though isn't it, people must be "working" these distances / times out all the time. But little formal guidance on how to do that.

Plan C is to do a test, and prove the response time. Plan B and C may be the other way around.

Plan D - not sure

Hi there

What type of work environment is this in? That has to be taken into account in terms of first aid risk assessment and the likelihood of a serious injury. I work in civil engineering and often we are working on different carriageways of a motorway project and / or on long linear sites. In terms of first aid we make sure all Supervisors are trained first aiders as part of their job role, we don't have any of the "I don't want to do that" scenario. We do also have take a pragmatic approach to supervision and will sometimes have one supervisors covering 2 or 3 discreet work areas, but they need to be close together and easy to get to ... I'm not sure this helps your debate.

Thanks all for the responses. I was hoping there was some official / tangible guidance out there I could point to. However as there is not, I will take the lead discussed in earlier posts. I want to get the manager on side, so he thinks the same as me about the need. If what he states is true about volunteers, I suspect it may be the way they were approached and not sold to them as a good idea both in work and their activities out of work. We cannot and will not try and force someone, but if needs must we can move people about or bring it up as a requirement for any new positions.

I have so far looked into those injury types I noted earlier, which if things went horribly wrong with any of our controls, we could get. I have then listed the issues with delayed first aid provision and times, showing a five-minute response time (at best) is in appropriate. I’m hoping this is enough to convince him, but at the moment he is thinking about it. If still no from him, I have the option of persuading the directors to tell him, but that will not help future working relationships, so is last resort.

The response time for an ambulance is interesting, but they effectively get there when they get there. My concern is about the preservation of life and general significant conditions until they arrive (sufficient first aiders and other provisions to allow this).

Once I have the Manager on side, I hope I can persuade someone to volunteer. Point out that it could be useful in any external clubs they are in or for their family or themselves in a pinch. I suspect at best they were asked “anyone want to be a first aider?” – “No, ok then”. I think I can do better.

It’s never come up as an issue before and most people can’t see why he thinks it would not be a reasonable requirement. But for me, first time in actually having to justify this sort of issue. I even asked a first aider what they were told. They said it was not covered, just “as soon as possible” or “quickly”. However, as I noted earlier not very helpful phrases, not precise or really meaningful. But we like things to not be prescriptive or limits set.

Again thanks for all your input.

Chris