Good morning. I would welcome your views on a CDM issue.

Can an outsourced Estates Department fully take on the role of 'Client' under CDM?

If not, what checks and balances do you think would be required to ensure the parent organisation is meeting it's client duties should such an outsourced department take on all of the responsibilities of the client role?

Under CDM the Client = the organisation or department that commissions the work.

The Client is the one who heads up the procurement team, allocates resources and does the appointing. In large organisations with several departments, this can be any one of the departments. However, they are all the same organisation / employer and not external.

This arrangement sounds like my old council - outsourcing Estates, leaving no property expertise within the core, and referring everything 'property-related' to the private company.

Under the older CDM regs, client role could be transferred to 'agent'. Chances are that the contract for the outsourcing was set up without giving this a thought. Those involved in such arrangements do not usually consult lowly safety practitioners, as they just see 'H&S legislation' in simple terms, under a 'compliance' banner.

CDM client duties cannot be transferred. The outsourced organisation is not the client (more like a PC). As with any of these outsourcing, JV partnerships, PFI set-ups etc, the risk tends to remain with the publicly funded organisation - the actual client.

My council found that as all expert staff had gone to their contractor (whatever fancy term used, this is what they are), with CDM they had no idea what to do or who to give the problem to. Eventually they ended up reinstating posts within the client (council) in order to liaise intelligently with the expertise in the outsourced organisation. So much for cost-savings.

If you can, get HSE opinion ( ('Hmm - grey area' was the response for me).

Ron, fair cop. I had forgot about reg 4.(8) where there can be more than one client. However I cannot find anything which allows a client to tranfer their duties to another external organisation.

Clive, it appears to me someone is trying to reinvent the wheel. The client (whoever pays the bills) is the client, even if they delegate any duties they are still duty bound to ensure they are carried out. So the client might as well get on and do them. Most of the CDM duties fall to the PC and PD anyway.

We do seem to be labouring this?

Regulation 4(8) seems (for a piece of legislation!) to me to be very clear:

"Where there is more than one client in relation to a project— one or more of the clients may agree in writing to be treated for the purposes of these Regulations as the only client or clients."

Clients can carve this up anyway they like - provided it is a matter of formal record - but they cannot escape by any means the individual duties of Regulation 4(8)(c) =


regulation 8(4); and

paragraph (4) (of Regulation 4) and regulation 8(6) to the extent that those duties relate to information in the possession of the client.

Hello All,

Thanks for the comments so far - but lets narrow this down. Forget Reg 4(8), it does not apply to this case - there is only one client.

However, the client wishes to pass all of the ACTIONS and RESPONSIBILITIES under CDM to an outsourced Estates function, whilst accepting that the legal duties will always remain with the client. The reason is that the client will not have any in-house capability or expertise to manage CDM or perform the client role over a very big multi-premises estate. I understand several large companies including household names do exactly that.

So, what should the client look for to be reassured that their legal duty is being met?

cliveg: with respect, the situation you describe involves 2 CDM Clients - there's no escaping that fact.

Before entering into written agreement and formal contract, the commissioning client (the one with the £££) has to be satisfied that the Estates Company describes method and resources which adequately discharge their involvement in Regulations 4(1) - 4(6) and Regulations 4, 6 and 8 as applicable.

The response and agreement should be Project specific, a generic "policy" is unlikely to cover it.

As you say, this situation and arrangement is not unusual (e.g. Local Authority or NHS engaging Special Purpose Vehicle /PFI etc. for new School or Hospital.

Yes Clive, particularly in context of (b) and (e).

Hello All

If you read through this thread I think you will agree that most people felt that the outsourced Estates Dept could not be the client under CDM, and a few - notably Ron - felt that they could be the client in some circumstances. I confess I was in the 'No' camp too.

I decided to give the IOSH technical line a whirl, and got this back:-

With regard to the first part of your enquiry, as I believe you are aware, there is nothing specific within CDM regarding who can be a client as the Regulations simply define a client as ‘anyone for whom a construction project is carried out’; therefore, depending on the circumstances, an outsourced estates department could be the client under CDM.

In some circumstances, it may not be clear who the client or clients are. Any uncertainty should be resolved as early as possible by considering who:
(a) ultimately decides what is to be constructed, where, when and by whom;
(b) commissions the design and construction work (the employer in contract terminology);
(c) initiates the work;
(d) is at the head of the procurement chain; and
(e) appoints contractors (including the principal contractor) and designers (including the principal designer).

Therefore, in the circumstances you described, where some of the criteria would apply to the parent organisation and the rest would apply to the outsourced estates department, then both parties may be considered to be a client and, as the above guidance explains, the best course would be for one of them to agree to be the client for the purposes of CDM.

So there you have it, looks like the guidance is not as clear as it could be.

They also suggested contacting the advisory team at the HSE, so I have and will update you when I get a reply.

Best wishes